new fowler - I hope.

Shine said:

So the question is ... Do you think you got your moneys worth?.

Click to expand...

Don't know if I can give an absolute 'yes' or 'no' on that.
But, I did discover another big dissapointment. While cleaning after my first shooting session it felt like the breech might not be smooth. I looked with a bore light and it doesn't look smooth. I put a scraper down the barrel and it would not turn. :shocked2: It caught on something. As best as I could see, with one eye down a gun bore, the breech face is indeed rough as a little mountain range. That is not good. And, I am at a loss to figure out how something like that could happen. Breech plugs come smooth or convex but still smooth. What is with that breech is a puzzlement. What I'll do about it is still being thunk on. One thought is to put a flat bottom grinding stone down there and have at it with a power drill. Dunno yet.
I am still concerned about why ignition is so iffy on follow-up shots. I dropped my bore light on a string and observed through the vent. The vent is properly located just in front of the breech face.
The vent is smaller than 1/16". I haven't been able measure it exactly with what I have in my shop. Undecided about enlarging to 1/16". Once the metal is removed it is pretty hard to put back. . The outside is lightly coned.
I wasn't going to summarize my feelings about Jackie until this thing got completely wrung out. But, I have come to a conclusion. I would not buy a custom gun from him again. :shake: There have been too many 'forgotten' details and too many 'excuses'. And the defects found do not speak well to his craftsmanship or dedication to same. His business practices are a disaster. I'm not calling him dishonest but it is clear he is a completely disorganized person and businessman. Unlikely, but I might consider buying one of his in-the-white guns if it was finished and in stock for immediate shipping. That way, if defects are found it could be sent right back for a refund.
Realistically, I doubt I'll be doing business with Jackie Brown in the future.

Mine was in the white and I still had to fix a bunch of stuff. At least your lock came with all of the parts. Im sorry this happend to another guy. Buying a gun should make a person giddy. It does me anyways. I sold the gun because it ****** me off to look at it. And after alot of work it was a reliable gun just not the belle of the ball. But I think the guy has his head up his 4th point of contact. Ps Have a white lightning liner put in you won't be sorry. You can get everything you need from TOW. Drill bit tap and liner.

Rifleman. FWIW I went ahead and punched my vent out to 1/16 before I shot my fowler for the first time. I have had good ignition every time. Shot it about 20 times in the last couple days.

Wayne/AL

Well, if he doesn't claim the rest of his money you got a deal. Not only did your lock get browned, you were BROWNED also :nono:
Nit Wit

Wayne said:

Rifleman. FWIW I went ahead and punched my vent out to 1/16 before I shot my fowler for the first time. I have had good ignition every time. Shot it about 20 times in the last couple days.

Wayne/AL

Click to expand...

I'll be doing that today. 1/16" it is.

Nit Wit said:

Well, if he doesn't claim the rest of his money you got a deal. Not only did your lock get browned, you were BROWNED also :nono:
Nit Wit

Click to expand...

I wouldn't keep the money. At least not yet. If it isn't claimed in, say 90 days, then I might. I know he has notifications from PP and my via phone and e-mail.

There seems to be interest in this thread. Here is another detail for consideration. If you are about to build a gun the choice of locks is very important. I like L&R for their unfailing quality and performance. For this fowler I picked out the L&R Old English double throat. It is very much like a Durs Egg or Manton waterproof. I stil like the looks. But found it is tricky to prime. There isn't much room between the open frizzen and half cocked hammer. Cleaning is tricky also as there are a lot of nooks and crannys on it. It never fails to spark, that is good and typical of the L&Rs. I'll be making myself a primer, probably from anler tip, that will fit and be easier to use. BTW, this is not the fault of Jackie Brown. The lock was my choice.

Link

I must say, you are the first person I've seen sit there and say how good L&R locks are. Whenever we're asked to list the quality of locks made today, L&R are usually at the bottom of the list. I have a Manton on my squirrel rifle that is a very good lock, sparks like crazy and hasn't failed to go off yet but thats only because Roy basically rebuilt the thing to make sure it does.

Swampy said:

I must say, you are the first person I've seen sit there and say how good L&R locks are. Whenever we're asked to list the quality of locks made today, L&R are usually at the bottom of the list. I have a Manton on my squirrel rifle that is a very good lock, sparks like crazy and hasn't failed to go off yet but thats only because Roy basically rebuilt the thing to make sure it does.

Click to expand...

Interesting comment, Swampy.
I'll have to exclude Chambers locks from my comments simply because I have never seen one.
I have had (older) Silers that varied from just OK to great depending on who built them. (for those who might not know, for a long time Silers were sold only as kits and had to be built, hardend and tuned by the builder) I had a Doc Haddaway that was great, I miss it. Along the way I have also had several imports that varied from wuthluss to just lousy but worked with tuning and hardening. But, when I had my Jaeger built I got a Davis and it was worse, in all respects, than the lousiest of the wuthluss imports. It was exchanged five times before we got one that worked at all. Then I got an L&R Classic. This is, supposedly, an improved version of the Siler. Out of the box, it was the best looking, smoothest and insanely great sparking modern made lock I had ever seen. (I have seen some 200 to 400 year old locks that were masterpieces) Inside was polished like a Swiss watch. Fast and smooth working. Sparks, sparks, sparks. Incredible. I don't know if I'll ever get another ml gun (age and budget factors involved there) but if I do, it will sport an L&R lock. Fer certain, fer sure.

I think the biggest complaint with L&R is the internals aren't hardened like they should be. I believe thats what Roy ran into with mine. I know of at least one builder on this forum who said he'd never buy another L&R lock. :idunno:

Rifleman1776 said:

Swampy said:

I must say, you are the first person I've seen sit there and say how good L&R locks are. Whenever we're asked to list the quality of locks made today, L&R are usually at the bottom of the list. I have a Manton on my squirrel rifle that is a very good lock, sparks like crazy and hasn't failed to go off yet but thats only because Roy basically rebuilt the thing to make sure it does.

Click to expand...

Interesting comment, Swampy.
I'll have to exclude Chambers locks from my comments simply because I have never seen one.
I have had (older) Silers that varied from just OK to great depending on who built them. (for those who might not know, for a long time Silers were sold only as kits and had to be built, hardend and tuned by the builder) I had a Doc Haddaway that was great, I miss it. Along the way I have also had several imports that varied from wuthluss to just lousy but worked with tuning and hardening. But, when I had my Jaeger built I got a Davis and it was worse, in all respects, than the lousiest of the wuthluss imports. It was exchanged five times before we got one that worked at all. Then I got an L&R Classic. This is, supposedly, an improved version of the Siler. Out of the box, it was the best looking, smoothest and insanely great sparking modern made lock I had ever seen. (I have seen some 200 to 400 year old locks that were masterpieces) Inside was polished like a Swiss watch. Fast and smooth working. Sparks, sparks, sparks. Incredible. I don't know if I'll ever get another ml gun (age and budget factors involved there) but if I do, it will sport an L&R lock. Fer certain, fer sure.

Click to expand...

It must have been some time since you have bought an L&R. 20 years ago the quality was good. Now, not so much.

It must have been some time since you have bought an L&R. 20 years ago the quality was good. Now, not so much.

Click to expand...

Three months and three years ago.
I don't know about 20 years ago, I was hung up on Silers and Haddaways then.
Current L&Rs I have seen, and used are GREAT-GREAT-GREAT!

My old J. brown has a L&R Queen Anne and it has not failed to spark even once, and it throws quite an impressive shower. It is also very smooth functioning in all other respects.

Swampy said:

I think the biggest complaint with L&R is the internals aren't hardened like they should be. I believe thats what Roy ran into with mine. I know of at least one builder on this forum who said he'd never buy another L&R lock. :idunno:

Click to expand...

In defense of your comments: I have been told that at one time a number of years ago, L&R received the wrong steel powder used for their castings. What they received was a soft steel and they unknowlingly shipped quite a few locks that did not perform well. That oversight now, reportedly, has been corrected. Nothing "soft" in the L&R locks I have seen in recent years. An event like that can harm a companies reputation. Although, some who ship less than quality products seem to go on and on. Don't ask me how. :idunno:

An apology to Jackie Brown.
One issue I complained about has been clarified. After several e-mail exchanges with Jackie I figured out where the source of the confusion came from.
To paraphrase, at one point Jackie told me TVM was doing the cross inlay . Later he told me he never farmed out any of his work and that is what Randy at TVM told me also.
So, wassup? :idunno:
The word "inlay" I took to mean as actually doing the work of setting in (inletting) the cross into the wood.
Not so. Randy at TVM made the "inlay", meaning he made the cross. He did not do the wood cut-out or setting of the cross into the wood. Jackie did that.
His comments and use of the word "inlay" did create half the confusion, my understanding of what he meant created the other half.
Mea culpa and apologies to Jackie.

i could not reply on the jbbrls post, but fwiw my "tulle" was $830.00 plus the $80.00 repair, so final price for usefull gun for hunting small game $910.00. it is not the bad gun for what i wanted and intend to use it for. my main issue was that jackie was trying to defend undefendable workmanship mistake and tried to accuse me of scaming him for repair, and to downprice the gun that he built from $830.00 to $600.00 (in my case).
anyway, glad that you are working through the issues and have a good day!!!!

Shine said:

So the question is ... Do you think you got your moneys worth?.

Click to expand...

Not ignoring you. That is a tough question. I dunno. Would I have gotten better from someone else for the same money?
Am I angry/dissapointed enough to send back?
No. I got wat I got.

I'm back from the Saunder's Memorial matches. Had a great time. Didn't score well on the trade gun matches with my Jackie Brown fowler. Before going I opened up the touch hole to 5/64" to try to improve ignition. The lock sparks flawlessly every time. Problem not there. Still have ignition problems, have to pick primer into the hole to assure any ignition. There may be burrs inside barrel. I dunno. :idunno: Trigger pull is horrendously hard. All my shots were hitting about 10" to the left of point of aim. I know I was jerking. Will dissassemble this week and see if I can debreech. Then, hopefully, I'll be able to smoothe the breech face and get rid of possible burrs around touch hole. Also see what is making trigger pull so hard. I don't think it is the lock. Might (must?) be bad inletting. I already had to reset the lock that inlet was so bad.

Also see what is making trigger pull so hard. I don't think it is the lock. Might (must?) be bad inletting. I already had to reset the lock that inlet was so bad.

Click to expand...

Just put up the carving tools. Bad, really bad, trigger pull was due to bad inletting. Trigger was hitting and binding against wood everywhere possible and a couple impossible spots. :shocked2: I had to remove a lot of wood from inside. Won't say how much, but if you want a free winter supply of kindlin' come on by. :wink:
Trigger works just fine now and pull is what one would want/expect normally. I was sure it wasn't the lock as I could trip it easily outside the gun.

This thread has gone on a long time. I'll repeat, the thread, and my intentions, are not meant to be a 'bash Jackie' message. I am reporting facts from what I experienced and what the gun says. Those elements should speak for themselves. Really, I feel as bad for what this says of Jackie as I do receiving my much anticipated fowler.
I'll not end or ask the thread to be locked until I figure out what is going on with the poor ignition and rough breech face.
If there is an upside it is that I have some experience and tools and am able to correct these problems. I really feel sorry for beginners getting something like this that, to them, would essentially be useless and a complete waste of money.

I, for one, laud you for this thread. Sometimes the truth just needs to be told. Don't feel bad, just think of the service you may be doing someone.