Where to stop?

I was drawn for CO elk Unit 71 this fall, and have been working a load up for it! I normally shoot 85gr ffg Triple7, over powder bore button, .018 pillow ticking patch with a .530 rb for my deer hunting! I wanted to see what the gun(54cal T/C Renegade) was capable of with a hotter load! Well, i have hit 95gr of ffg Triple7 and the group size is still very acceptable as far as elk go, and the fouling and recoil arent bad either! Is there a place where i should stop? Ive heard that a hot load in the low elevations is off the mark by alot in the altitudes, something to do with burn rate of the powder maybe :idunno: Also, with all that powder behind that ball, it actually would make the ball expand alot at closer range, hindering penetration in my mind?

A phone call to TC asured me that their Hawken 54 cal rifles can handle up to 120 grains with patched round balls or conicals. I've shot plenty of great plains bullets out of mine with excellent results. As to where to stop, I wouldn't go over 120 grains and I'd stop before that if the accuracy you desire goes south on you. Some guns shoot very well on the hot side and some don't. Just keep trying different load and use what works best.

i know the max loading for the gun, its 100gr for Triple7! Im talking more along the lines of horsepower, ive never been a huge fan of a really heavy powder charge but this gun is surprising me big time as far as its accuracy!

Your rifle will handle a little more Tripple Seven if you wish to try it. If you don't believe me you can call or email TC and they will tell you so. I wouldn't go that hot on a cheap import, but the TC's like your will handle it. The question is will you get the accuracy you want? You won't know unless you try. Elk are big critters and take a lot of horse power to put on the ground. I've seen people shooting center fire rifles that didn't get the job done. Either lost the animal or found it in some awful location that makes a man want to give up on elk hunting before the packing is done.

In my younger days I spent plenty of time helping an outfitter and working off my own hunt. If I was to go back to the mountains for elk, I'd use a conical.

I think im goin with the prb, i did however consider tryin a conical in a 50cal T/C Tree Hawk that i have but... 3yrs ago when the application process started we all agreed to use prb's! 3 of us have 54cals, and the other has a 58cal, theres nobody shooting borderline killers in my book! I love the way the gun performed with the 85gr load, but what the heck, another 5-10gr cant hurt as long as accuracy is maintained correct?

One thing to consider is that you don't want to push a prb too fast. Higher velocities can reduce penetration with pure lead due to increased expansion. You want all the penetration you can get on an elk.

You want all the penetration you can get on an elk. [/quote] = good conical.

Bottom line is what you and the rifle shoot well. I've seen guys trying to take advantage of lots of powder, especially with heavy conicals, have all sorts of trouble killing elk. Mostly cuzz they couldn't put their shot where it belonged whether trying to shoot too far or shooting poorly from flinching.

A good reason for more powder is flattening the trajectory for longer shots if you can take them reliably, and the further out there you get the more advantage to the conical for flatter trajectory and retained horsepower.

Bottom line, I've seen 54 cal RBs completely penetrate elk and produce one-shot kills out to around 50 yards three times on three different elk. Same hunter. The charge was 80 grains of 2f Goex. His two hunting pards were shooting 50's with conicals a whole lot hotter on the first two hunts, and all four of their elk required second shots. Hunter error due to range stretching and poor pointing. They both switched to 54 cal and RB with hotter loads for hunt #3 and had the same results. Two shots each. Same hunter error problems.

As is so often said, it's less about what you're pointing and more about how you're pointing it.

Eggzactly! :hatsoff:

kinda the angle im leaning towards as well :hatsoff: I thought by standards that my 85gr load i worked up for it years ago was stouter than most(85gr of Triple7 is equal to about 98gr of bp)! Im up to 95gr and my groups only increased in size by about 2" at 100yds, and are maybe 1" at 50yds off sandbags! I am kinda worried about getting a shot at an elk at 20yds with a screamer load, and having it just pancake upon impact Im only going to take broadside or quartering away shots! Ive noticed that half the deer ive shot with it(85gr load) inside of 50yds fully absorbed the ball and almost all of em beyond 50yds were total passthroughs!

What BB said...

Whats your range limit, whats the furthest you will shoot? In most cases any of the loads you listed will do the job if you do your part out to 75 to 100 yards anyway. I pretty much stay within 75 yards here for deer, which really is a long shot as my avg shot is about 40 yards. So a good accurate load sighted in at 50 yards works quite well for me.

I feel that 100yds was always my max on deer, and it should be on elk! If that big critter is broadside at say 112yds hes gettin it, as ill have no way other than my yardage estimation of knowing exact yardage! Off sandbags i get 2"-3" groups at 50yds, and 4"-5" groups at 100yds with the 95gr load and the point of impact is a touch higher than the 85gr load that it is sighted in for! Ive been practicing in the prone, kneeling, sitting with shooting sticks positions, and im confident out to 100yds id say! So nobody has answered my question about accuracy being lost in the higher elevations with a hot load thats worked up down on the flat? Any insight as far as if i have anything to worry about with my load up there?

Combustion of nitrates produces oxygen , that is main ingredeant of BP.That takes care of one of your concerns.

The air is thicker down there & thiner up here ,
projectile will shoot a little flatter at a higher elevation at same temperature.( thinner air. less resistance)
If its cold the air is a little thicker & will
be like shooting at a lower altitude.
At the range you will be shooting your elk at
the difference is very slight,maybe an inch .

Ok, thanks a bunch! I believe a 90gr charge(kinda a middle of the road between my 85gr and my current 95gr load), would be a good compromise :idunno: I also am considering maybe trying the ITX roundballs, the ITX material doesnt have the expansion properties of lead, and if it shoots as good as my lead balls do, i may be onto somethin'! The ball is already over a 1/2" anyway, so expansion isnt needed really, and it by rights should penetrate better :thumbsup: I dunno, whats everyone think, worth a try?

mnbearbaiter said:

kinda the angle im leaning towards as well :hatsoff: I thought by standards that my 85gr load i worked up for it years ago was stouter than most(85gr of Triple7 is equal to about 98gr of bp)! Im up to 95gr and my groups only increased in size by about 2" at 100yds, and are maybe 1" at 50yds off sandbags! I am kinda worried about getting a shot at an elk at 20yds with a screamer load, and having it just pancake upon impact Im only going to take broadside or quartering away shots! Ive noticed that half the deer ive shot with it(85gr load) inside of 50yds fully absorbed the ball and almost all of em beyond 50yds were total passthroughs!

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Your RB will not "pancake" at 20 yards even at max velocities, in fact and expansion that takes place is going to give you a larger wound channel and quicker bleed out even if it's not through and through. Since you groups have started to open up with more powder I would reduce your loads until you get back to your previous accuracy. The velocity you are getting with 85 grains of T-7 is plenty for deer and elk, especially with a .54 RB. No amount of velocity, bullet type or caliber will make up for a poorly placed shot and it sounds like you've already found a winning combination for your rifle, so enjoy the success it brings. :thumbsup:
"I also am considering maybe trying the ITX roundballs, the ITX material doesnt have the expansion properties of lead, and if it shoots as good as my lead balls do, i may be onto somethin'! The ball is already over a 1/2" anyway, so expansion isnt needed really, and it by rights should penetrate better I dunno, whats everyone think, worth a try? "

No, I don't think it's worth a try conidering how expensive it is. Lead is a great material for our purposes, we should use more of it.

bull3540 said:

Your RB will not "pancake" at 20 yards even at max velocities, in fact and expansion that takes place is going to give you a larger wound channel and quicker bleed out even if it's not through and through.

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Thats true as long as you penetrate both lungs. An elk can cover a lot of ground on single lung hits, increasing the risk of losing it.

pab1 said:

bull3540 said:

Your RB will not "pancake" at 20 yards even at max velocities, in fact and expansion that takes place is going to give you a larger wound channel and quicker bleed out even if it's not through and through.

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Thats true as long as you penetrate both lungs. An elk can cover a lot of ground on single lung hits, increasing the risk of losing it.

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Like I said, nothing makes up for a bad shot. Muzzle loaders just can't develop enough velocity to completely flatten or pancake a lead ball upon impact. That isn't to say that the RB won't deform a good bit at higher velocities though, which results in a larger stretch and crush cavity, thus a bigger hole and faster bleed out as well as more chance that major arteries will be cut or damaged. I have seen animals with solid hits through both lungs take off and run for long periods though, but those were with CF bullets so entrance holes started out under 30 caliber and didn't get much bigger on the way through.

bull3540 said:

That isn't to say that the RB won't deform a good bit at higher velocities though, which results in a larger stretch and crush cavity, thus a bigger hole and faster bleed out as well as more chance that major arteries will be cut or damaged.

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Thats the point I was making. Expansion does cause a larger wound channel but it can also reduce penetration. A high velocity load at close range is more likely to have lower penetration. Your shot placement can be perfect and still not penetrate enough. No two shots on game are the same due to whether or not bone is impacted, if the animal is relaxed or excited, distance, impact velocity, etc. Some people get caught up in getting the highest velocity possible assuming it will increase penetration. On deer sized game it may not matter but on animals the size of elk it can have the opposite effect.

should be ok for elk at close range. say the most 50 60 yards. I my self shoot 90 grains of t7 FFFg and a 380 real for elk.

pab1 said:

bull3540 said:

That isn't to say that the RB won't deform a good bit at higher velocities though, which results in a larger stretch and crush cavity, thus a bigger hole and faster bleed out as well as more chance that major arteries will be cut or damaged.

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Thats the point I was making. Expansion does cause a larger wound channel but it can also reduce penetration. A high velocity load at close range is more likely to have lower penetration. Your shot placement can be perfect and still not penetrate enough. No two shots on game are the same due to whether or not bone is impacted, if the animal is relaxed or excited, distance, impact velocity, etc. Some people get caught up in getting the highest velocity possible assuming it will increase penetration. On deer sized game it may not matter but on animals the size of elk it can have the opposite effect.

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Oh, no doubt, increasing the (frontal) area of the RB is going to result in more resistance and drain off the velocity faster. IMO muzzle loaders just can't drive the RB fast enough to cause it to flatten into a pancake and begin breaking apart within a few inches after striking an animal unless you stuff so much into the barrel that you end up damaging the rifle and yourself. I don't believe that is going to happen in this case. If accuracy is acceptable using 85 grains of Triple 7 then there is no need to use more, especially when the groups seem to be opening up using more powder. I'd rather have a .54 sized hole on both sides but having a .54 sized entrance hole that opens up to say .70 halfway through and lodges in the hide on the other side isn't bad either. Is there a need for more velocity in this case? No, I don't think so. Is there a chance that the round ball will "pancake" and fail to penetrate enough if it strikes at close range (20 yards)? Well, anything is possible but I'd say the likelyhood of that is pretty slim even if the powder charge is increased to the max. In this case use the current combination of PRB and powder charge on an elk with confidence even if you manage to get real close and shoot it within 20 yards. Hope this helps and isn't too far off the original topic- :v