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Park Rifle - Can anyone give any more information?

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JasonUK

32 Cal.
Joined
Aug 28, 2005
Messages
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Location
UK
I've just seen this in my local gunstore and I'm at a loss to find more information about it. The manager took the rifle from the display and dismantled it for me to show me all of the main parts, and to show the lock and barrel were in good condition. I know it is a reproduction in .62 calibre but that is the only information the store could tell me. There were no other markings other than proof stamps and a serial number. The Manager of the store suspected it was Italian or French and other than advertising it as a 'Park Rifle' they could tell me no more.

The only reproductions I have come across of late with no makers name on have been Indian-made reproductions but this rifle does seem to have a much finer quality about it. The rifling is crisp, the trigger is a match trigger and it is well assembled.

I have put an offer in on it, but have since found that I could get a new Pedersoli Mortimer for the same price as this second hand-rifle.

So I have a dilemma. Do I risk buying something which might have been discontinued with a limited production run for some reason? Certainly I haven't seen any other reproductions of this model anywhere. If any of you knowledgeable gentlemen could shed any light on it I would be very grateful - the damage to my credit card may depend upon it! :grin:

8u0pif8q9zvb0axhgu6p
 
Now from my end, it looks like the image hasn't shown. I hope it has - that just took me nearly 2 hours to attempt to post a URL, instead of trying to copy and paste. :(
 
The forum won't show a direct web link such as the one you posted.

I found the picture and retouched it a bit to lighten it. Here is the photo

ParkRifle.jpg
 
Thanks Zonie, I was losing the will to live trying to work out how to post that. :)
 
Follow this link and watch the video.
http://www.muzzleloadingforum.com/fusionbb/showtopic.php?tid/255033/

The gun in question looks like it was well made although I don't have any idea who or when it was produced.

I assume the proof mark is British? If not, it could be a clue to where the gun was made.
(Note to other readers: All firearms in Great Britain must be proofed to be legal to shoot."
 
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Thank you again Zonie, I am now better equipped to post pictures in future.

Yes, the proof-marks are British. If I recall, I was told that it was proofed in 1999.
 
Jason UK said:
but this rifle does seem to have a much finer quality about it. The rifling is crisp, the trigger is a match trigger and it is well assembled.

I have put an offer in on it, but have since found that I could get a new Pedersoli Mortimer for the same price as this second hand-rifle.

8u0pif8q9zvb0axhgu6p
That pictured rifle looks very nice to me. Look at the stock! Subject to inspection of the bore, I might easily go $700+.

Don't worry about being a discontinued model - all reproductions are either discontinued or soon will be. There aren't many replacement parts to worry about.

Solution to your dilema - buy both.
 
The stock is curly maple, and I would rate it as being a high grade. Very nice "curl".

This wood is often seen in reproduction rifles made in the USA by individual builders but I don't think many (if any) European and no Indian makers at all ever use it.

Looking at the gun as if it were custom made in the US, here are a few thoughts:

The lock looks like a L&R produced lock which is based on a 1760-1770 lock by Londons John Twigg.
I can't tell from the pictures if there is a roller on the frizzen but if there is it would be a later design. Perhaps a modified L&R Durs Egg lock?

Having said the trigger is a "match trigger" also gives some weight to the idea that the gun is defiantly not a factory made gun.

The barrel appears to be swamped or tapered, also features that are rarely found on factory guns but are quite common to the better grades of custom US made guns.

The dual barrel keys and the general style of the "half" stock are in line with the US rifles used from 1830-1870.

The iron furniture also is typical of this time period.

The sliding wooden patchbox was common to early American rifles but is seldom encountered on a half stock gun.

Without knowing the condition of the bore it is difficult to say what a value would be but if the bore is in excellent condition this gun would easily sell for over $900 here in the States.

As a side note: there was a man named John Park who was a gunmaker in 1878-1882 in Williamsburg, Clermont County, Ohio and a Horace Park in Columbus, Ohio 1878-1893.
 
Zonie, thank you for your helpful thoughts on this rifle. I am pleased that you thought it is of good build quality and excellent woodwork, as it was very pleasing to handle and examine this rifle closely. I'm just amazed not to have seen a makers name on the rifle. One would think that a maker would have been proud to have produced something like this - this I think was my main concern - it just struck me as a bit strange that there is no obvious name anywhere.

The asking price is quite high, but if it is a custom made rifle then, it is probably justifiably so. Prices in the UK for guns are somewhat inflated. A new Pedersoli Brown Bess goes for around £950 (must be around $1500 dollars) and this (second-hand) rifle has a guide price of similar. I have always wanted a custom-made rifle so my inclination to purchase this one has increased. I have to say that it shoulders extremely well, straight to the eye and just felt 'right'.

I did some reading around on the internet and I found a couple of references to Park Rifles. I wondered if this is a particular style of English rifle? Below is a description from an auction house for one they were selling in 1995, notably this example has a Ferguson Breech which no doubt added to it's value. There is also no indication how common a breech of this sort was to a 'Park Rifle' :

"Lot Description
A VERY RARE 20-BORE FERGUSON-ACTION BREECH-LOADING FLINTLOCK PARK RIFLE

BY DURS EGG, LONDON, CIRCA 1790
With browned sighted barrel cut with eight shallow grooves and with silver fore-sight, the breech signed on the sighting flat and engraved with a band of beadwork behind the loading aperture, case-hardened tang engraved with a martial trophy and a floral spray, signed border engraved case-hardened bevelled lock with stepped tail and semi-rainproof pan, figured walnut half-stock (chipped and repaired) without fore-end cap, the butt with cheek-piece and characteristic chequering on the grip, blued iron mounts engraved with martial trophies, and traces of original finish (retaining extension missing from trigger-guard), London proof marks
30in. barrel"

It sold in 1995 for $16,632.00. Clearly without some serious saving up, i'm going to have to stick to reproductions of this type! :grin:
 
My thoughts on a Park Rifle based on your photos and the description of the auctioned gun tends to make me think that a "Park Rifle" is some sort of English rifle style that was popular in the late 1700's to early 1800's?

As you may know, in America the half stock was used for the 1803 Harper's Ferry but they really didn't catch with the general population until the 1830's over here.

The 30" barrel on the auctioned gun and the photos of the gun your looking at which show a relatively short barrel were also uncommon in that era in America.

Perhaps someone more knowledgeable than me about this can add some information?
 
I don't know what the "Park Rifle" term means. I have never heard the term before. Kinda sounds like a term people might toss around with out really knowing what it means.

However the Ferguson rifle you found is a gun created by Major Ferguson and used in very small numbers by the British in the Revolutionary War in the US.
Note it is a breech loading NOT a muzzle loading rifle. Very much before its time really, and very few were made.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ferguson_rifle

It isn't the same style rifle you are looking at. BTW grab that gun; a gun that has that high quality of wood on it isn't something cheaply made.
 
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A style of rifle for shooting park deer (i.e. deer on a privately owned property... a "deer park." This is about the only place deer could be shot as there is virtually no public hunting land in England). Its an English style rifle. Even the curley maple stock is appropriate as these were a fad in the London gun trade around 1795-1805. The bore should be fairly large - more than .50 - and the barrel short by American standards. I'm not so certain about the wooden patchbox but English-made German-style rifles also enjoyed a brief period of popularity slightly earlier so the sliding wood patchbox was a known feature in the trade at the beginning of the 19th century.

I would guess it was custom made in America for someone in England... someone who was familiar with these rifles and the fashion of the time. The originals are not common. Thirty years ago I collected the parts to make a rifle like this... I still have them and probably will never get to it.

Two similar rifles, one by Durs Egg and the other by John Manton, are illustrated in "Early Firearms of Great Britain & Ireland" the catalog of the Metropolitan Museum of Art display of the Clay Bedford Collection. (Long out of print but still available from used book dealers).
 
Thank you for the very interesting information on this particular type of rifle. I must say that I was very curious to find out more and found the net sadly lacking. My two questions have been answered: Is this particular rifle in the shop a worthwhile quality purchase (the answer seems to be a resounding 'yes'!), and my desire to find out what a Park Rifle is (which has also been well answered).

I am in hourly expectation of a phone call to see if my offer has been accepted on it. If successful I shall be very happy to take more photos of it, and with my new-found knowledge, post them up on this site with a range report. Should some-one else snap the rifle up in the meantime (I hope not as it has been in the shop for about a year), then I will be disappointed but will try to procure one of the beautiful custom long-rifles which I have found on the web in pursuit of more information of this one. :grin:

I have yet to investigate how easy/difficult/impossible it is to order a custom- made rifle from the States to the 'Old Country' but may yet find out in due course.

Many thanks again for your help.
 
Park rifle may be a term used in Britain, most here consider it an English sporting rifle. As it's custom built the price area you mentioned is pretty good. It would easily go for $1,100 to $1,400 over here, depending on the custom maker, the $700 price mentioned by someone would be a steal, as the parts would cost that much at least. A side note, most originals were English Walnut, not Curly Maple, and would not have had a wooden sliding patch box. I suspect whomever built the rifle, whether for himself or a customer's request, made it that way. regardless a nice rifle. The only criticism I would have is that the lock molding is too fat, and should be slimmer. With the straight butt she should be able to handle a fairly stout load.

Bill
 
Bill of the 45th Parallel said:
Park rifle may be a term used in Britain, most here consider it an English sporting rifle. As it's custom built the price area you mentioned is pretty good. It would easily go for $1,100 to $1,400 over here, depending on the custom maker, the $700 price mentioned by someone would be a steal, as the parts would cost that much at least. A side note, most originals were English Walnut, not Curly Maple, and would not have had a wooden sliding patch box. I suspect whomever built the rifle, whether for himself or a customer's request, made it that way. regardless a nice rifle. The only criticism I would have is that the lock molding is too fat, and should be slimmer. With the straight butt she should be able to handle a fairly stout load.

Bill

Bill - a fair assesment except for the point of the sliding patch box - there are many known ENglish Rifles with such a German influence, much as the Jaeger's influenced the makers in the Colonies .
Also English Sporting rifle is a later 1800's term, rather than an 18th Century one.


Turvey Rifle - circa 1740's
turvey-1.jpg


Two others circa 1780-90's....
english-rifle-4.jpg
 
Thanks, I stand corrected on the wooden box. English Sporting are not really my true interest. Those pic's justify that that is a fair representation.

Bill
 
Based on the photos, I would have no reservations about buying that rifle whatsoever. As previously noted, it looks hand built and very well made. Personally if it were between this one and a Pedersoli, I would definitely pick this one. Pedersoli's are well made but with this one you may have one-of-a kind.
 
Well, after an agonising delay, I have been contacted by the gunshop on behalf of the private seller and my offer has been accepted and my deposit paid :grin:

I just have the paperwork etc to file with the local Police (a very labourious boring UK process!), and hopefully by this time next month I will be permitted to bring it home.

I must thank LaBonte for posting the great photos of Park Rifles. I have to say I have now been educated on a type of rifle I knew nothing about previously, so my grateful thanks to all of you for that (and also for your encouragement to buy an excellent quality rifle...not that I need all that much encouragement when it comes to buying rifles!) :wink:

I will post photos and a range report once I get to bring it home and take it to the ranges.

I'm guessing that a load of around 50 - 60 grains of a medium grain powder might be a good starting point for a .62 calibre rifle? Any advice would again be much appreciated. Many thanks.
 

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