Help me date this Lancaster rifle

A buddy of mine made this rifle which I am considering buying. Can you fine gentlemen please help me discern what era it is acceptable for use in? I know it is a .50 caliber Lancaster long rifle.

The smallish trigger bow usually suggests a later period, if the barrel is not swamped or tapperd it would be post 1800 generaly, it appears to be missing any of the typical line mouldings along the forestock or buttstock these were found on most earlier guns and may have been used less in the later days after the golden age.I do not know how wide the buttplate is but a wide one alone would not give the gun an early provence, I would give a general time of late flint period 1820-30 may be as early as 1800 there is not a great deal to base anything upon

The barrel is 38 inches in length. It has the same octagon shape and width from the breach to the muzzle. So I guess that means it isn't swamped or tapered. This is the first muzzleloader I have ever shot and was hoping it would suitable for 1770+. Unfortunately that appears to not be the case.

It looks to me almost like a variation of the Chambers Haines kit, though with some parts changes.

The thing with historical accuracy is the question of how detailed you want to go. If you're REALLY into it, a full custom gun probably is the way to go, using documentation and research as a basis for the project. It's as much about being an historian as it is a shooter at that point. Semi-custom guns can do a good job of approximating a "general period feel", though are off in some details usually. So I guess it depends on just how much history you're into. If you really have a need for fine detail, you may need a fully customized gun from a builder done. If you're more concerned about budget and "ballpark" is fine, then semi-custom probably would fit the bill alright.

It's kind of a mixed build. Early buttplate, later guard, late lock moldings. If we date a gun by its latest feature, 1790 is as early as it can be. Change out the guard and it looks better to me.

If you go to most events you will likely find more straight barreled "Rev War" guns than swamped barrels one,as stated it is all a matter of how far you are into it but it is good for one to know what is what, it helps in making educated choices and may prevent some erronius claims.It looks like a nice gun from what I can see, few events will make you leave it at the gate or point and say "straight barrel!" as most likely do not know the difference.As the old saying goes, I wouldn't kick it out of bed.I kind of look at the PC/HC differently it either is or isn't within current standards, (steel barrels) whether/how much it matters is where the individual level comes into play.

Thanks for all the help gents. I am having a hard time swallowing the price tag of muzzle loaders (including the cheaper factory guns). So I want to buy only one for the time being. It will need to be a suitable rifle for hunting, target shooting and possibly re-enacting. Sort of a do everything basic long rifle. The asking price is $1300 for the piece pictured above. Coming from a modern shooting sports background I know I can buy a modern rifle with 10 times the performance for half the price of a this muzzle loader (and this isn't even an expensive one). I am just getting into muzzle loading and am finding it very enjoyable. Staying in or close to the 10 ring at 25 yards from the off hand.

What differentiates the various grades? This particular gun was made from an unshaped blank piece of curly maple. Looked like a plank with a butt stock. Not one of those pre-finished numbers that just requires fitting.

Factory - Self explanatory
Semi-Custom - ?
Custom- ?

I wil let someone else sort out the "grades" often there is some differences about that but usually minor as for the gun pictured I do not want to offend anyone but I would not lay down over a grand for that gun with the barrel type and no patchbox or carving...maybe even a bit less than a grand the more I think about it check out quite a few of the various suppliers of guns and gun parts once you have an understanding of the custom, semi ...and such and see how some of those prices compare, happy hunting and enjoy the journey, just take your time and you will be prepaired to make educated choices/decisions and you will do well and get a reasonable deal

Rich Pierce said:

It's kind of a mixed build. Early buttplate, later guard, late lock moldings. If we date a gun by its latest feature, 1790 is as early as it can be. Change out the guard and it looks better to me.

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I agree with Rich and TG here.A guard with a little deeper bow and a higher grip rail will make a real difference and the gun look earlier.Most reenactors won't know the difference unless they have seen and/or handled a Revolutionary War period Lancaster County rifle. This is a nice rifle with good architecture and a little tweaking will greatly help its appearance.
Tom Patton

Okwaho said:

Rich Pierce said:

It's kind of a mixed build. Early buttplate, later guard, late lock moldings. If we date a gun by its latest feature, 1790 is as early as it can be. Change out the guard and it looks better to me.

Click to expand...

I agree with Rich and TG here.A guard with a little deeper bow and a higher grip rail will make a real difference and the gun look earlier.Most reenactors won't know the difference unless they have seen and/or handled a Revolutionary War period Lancaster County rifle. This is a nice rifle with good architecture and a little tweaking will greatly help its appearance.
Tom Patton

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While agreeing with that, I would echo TG in saying I wouldn’t pay over a thousand dollars for that gun, with a straight barrel and no patch box, carving, etc.

Understand that people throw around terms like “semi-custom” quite a bit. In general, what most people are referring to by “semi-custom” are guns made by builders who build dozens of guns from the same fairly generic pattern, rather than truly individualizing every piece (though most “semi-custom” makers are fully capable of “customizing” to the buyers’ tastes). TVM, ERA, Jackie Brown- these are some makers that many would classify as “semi custom.” Some also use the term to mean a step lower than the best builders (i.e. “custom” makers), and TVM, ERA, and Jackie Brown would also fall into this category, but they can still build a quality gun that can fit the bill historically if you know what to ask for- the price will be less and the overall aesthetics will be lower because less time (and sometimes less skill) will go into making them because they build more guns at a faster rate.

The majority of makers- the best included- use quality American parts like Getz Barrels and Chambers locks, so in reality- “fully custom” is something of a misnomer. Yes, the best builders will sometimes forge their own buttplates and trigger guards, but they will probably be using already made parts- even if they do modify them by engraving, tuning, etc. In reality, very few folks build completely “custom” guns (making the lock, stock, and barrel) because the cost it prohibitive to most people and it takes an incredible amount of time and skill. The usual system of selecting quality parts from various sources is closer to how most 18th century gunsmiths operated anyway ( I tell myself that whenever I get depressed about never being able to afford a gun with a hand forged, wrought iron barrel and lock.)

Sorry for the rambling, just my humble observations on the “semi-custom” vs. custom semantics.

You can find affordable, suitable-for-reenactment guns out there. Just do your research beforehand!!!!

If you want to date this gun just go up to her and ask her out.............watch yer top knot...................

I just looked at the TVM website and as far as I can see pretty much the same gun goes for $935 I think.

Which TVM gun is similar for 935?

Being pretty much in agreement with what's been said, TVM's basic EL rifle is what tg is referring to. If you are contemplating spending $1300, they can build you a better and closer to PC/HC than the rifle pictured. It won't have carving or inlays but will have a patchbox. The swamped barrel alone is around $200. You might be able to squeeze under the wire and have the swamped barrel, too. It will be built to your lop, length, lock and whatever specifics you require. Do some research and talk with Toni. The downside is that you'll wait 6 to 8 months for the rifle. But the pictured gun just isn't worth the asking price.

I believe the early Lancaster or the Early Virginia they are both under $1000 there is little difference in these usually without something specific to set a gun as being from Virginia.

They change the furniture mainly to make the difference between Lancaster and Virginia. These are good generic rifles suitable for the Revolutionary War period (and later of course). Lancaster had a huge influence on rifle architecture elsewhere.

tgmoore said:

A buddy of mine made this rifle which I am considering buying. Can you fine gentlemen please help me discern what era it is acceptable for use in? I know it is a .50 caliber Lancaster long rifle.

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Its certainly not 1770s.
Number of reasons.
Also, as a constructive criticism your friend needs to look at the transition from the beech end of the barrel to the wrist.
This one is pretty clunky like he used the breech plug as made an did not bend it form the proper stock contour. While some originals were clunky in some areas the better makers guns seldom or never exhibit this. Not everyone who made rifles in America back in the day was a Master or even a competent gunstocker.

If you want a rifle of a certain era and place you need to look at a lot of guns or a lot of photos.
You can find a lot of early guns in "Rifles of Colonial America" Vol 1 & 2 by Shumway.
These may be available through your local library via inter-library loan.
Cheaper than buying.
If you want a good Rev-War Rifle get one of Jim Chambers early kits and have your buddy assemble it.

His "Mark Silver Virginia Rifle" is good. The Marshal Rifle is another excellent choice for 1770 rifle.

However, I would not use a caliber over 54, 50 or even 45 being more common from all accounts of the time and surviving rifles that show little use.

Many today have a mistaken notion of original bore sizes usually based on original rifles that saw a lot of use and were surely recut several times and not period descriptions or rifles that were used little after they were made.
Rev-war rifles in 45-50 caliber are well documented. Were ALL rifle in this caliber range nope, some were smaller and some were bigger but evidence indicates that the majority were 44-50 caliber. Few are over 54 today that still retain rifling even when obviously heavily used.

Dan

I understand the change in furniture to make the guns different just not what makes it Virginian, it could probably as well have been called a York.