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powderhorn staples

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canepole

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How were(are)staples attached to buttplug of powderhorn?Are the legs of the staples long enough to go through the base of the plug to be bent over to prevent them pulling out?
 
beanrifle said:
How were(are)staples attached to buttplug of powderhorn?Are the legs of the staples long enough to go through the base of the plug to be bent over to prevent them pulling out?

The staples can be bent on the inside of the horn to keep them from slipping out. One can make staples by holding a nail in a pair of pliers and filing then into a square. Once square, thet can be heated and spiral twisted. Very simple to do.
 
Tap them into pilot holes just smaller and somewhat shorter than the legs of the staple. No need to bend them over inside.
 
Capt. Jas. said:
Ever seen a twisted one on a real original?

I'm not going to get into a PC argument on that. If one likes it, do it. If PC is so [censored] important to one's self and there is no proof positive, DON'T do it! All I can say is that TOW sells them. If you do want to argue the point, take it up with them, not me! :yakyak:
 
"How were(are)staples attached to buttplug of powderhorn?"

Looks like a histiory based questuion to me :idunno: I have used regular straight leg staples with small pilot holes and have never had any pull out,I drive the staple in the center of the plug perpendicular to the plug, I think they are avaialble in several sizes in plain steel in the electrical department of many stores, the pressure on the staple from the thong/strap will not be from an angle that provides a direct pull against the legs as they entered the wood this is a big factor in any fastener pulling loose from wood, in the past I have stapled a small loop to the pluig which allows me to replace/change the strap as needed/desired with put removing the staple, I like woven leg ties for horn straps, I have occasionaly lost a tie and this makes good use of the remaining one.
 
tg said:
"How were(are)staples attached to buttplug of powderhorn?"

Looks like a histiory based questuion to me :idunno: I have used regular straight leg staples with small pilot holes and have never had any pull out,I drive the staple in the center of the plug perpendicular to the plug, I think they are avaialble in several sizes in plain steel in the electrical department of many stores, the pressure on the staple from the thong/strap will not be from an angle that provides a direct pull against the legs as they entered the wood this is a big factor in any fastener pulling loose from wood, in the past I have stapled a small loop to the pluig which allows me to replace/change the strap as needed/desired with put removing the staple, I like woven leg ties for horn straps, I have occasionaly lost a tie and this makes good use of the remaining one.

In bending the staples on the inside, I was actually picturing staples at the neck end, not on the base. Bending staples at the neck was suggested to me by someone very talented on "The Horners Bench".
 
It is indeed a history based question.I have made horns and am making horns,I'm merely wondering if someone had seen inside an old horn and knew the answer.I probably could be accused, accurately, of overbuilding things,I would however, hate to lose or at least scar up a nice horn by the staple pulling loose.
 
beanrifle said:
It is indeed a history based question.I have made horns and am making horns,I'm merely wondering if someone had seen inside an old horn and knew the answer.I probably could be accused, accurately, of overbuilding things,I would however, hate to lose or at least scar up a nice horn by the staple pulling loose.

I would suggest going to The Horners Bench forum and posting questions there. I'm sure you will find whatever HC answer you are looking for. You will also see some damn nice work there.

I should have read your OP more carefully. There is no need to bend staples in the plug. Simply drill under sized holes in the wood.
 
beanrifle said:
It is indeed a history based question.I have made horns and am making horns,I'm merely wondering if someone had seen inside an old horn and knew the answer.I probably could be accused, accurately, of overbuilding things,I would however, hate to lose or at least scar up a nice horn by the staple pulling loose.

If your staple pulls out, it was too short to begin with.

By driving it through the plug and bending over on the inside you are negating the water-proof feature of a well-fitted plug.
 
"These guys will try to start an argument over anything!!"

It is pretty obvious which side of the PC/HC fence side jumped the gun on this one and reverted to the do what you like and the *&^% HC coment was not needed, why do p[eople who are not in the leasst interested in the history of the guns and gear have to evemn post on history related threads no flame toward you Flintlock 62 this is done by many of what has become known as the anti HC/PC factor and it is baffling why folks who do not catre for or believe in a concept have to jump into a thread that is of that nature.
 
I don't remember asking you or anyone one else how long to make a staple or how to make a staple.I simply was curious if it was general knowledge(do you know)if staples were bent over to prevent them coming out when in the field or perhaps in battle.I thought this forum was to further knowledge and increase interest in muzzleloading.What's the deal?People read a little,learn a little,and they get a superiority complex?Please just answer my future questions,I can take it from there.
 
beanrifle said:
I don't remember asking you or anyone one else how long to make a staple or how to make a staple.I simply was curious if it was general knowledge(do you know)if staples were bent over to prevent them coming out when in the field or perhaps in battle.I thought this forum was to further knowledge and increase interest in muzzleloading.What's the deal?People read a little,learn a little,and they get a superiority complex?Please just answer my future questions,I can take it from there.

If you are going to jump all over me for actually answering your question, then I will be happy to ignore any questions you might pose in the future.

You asked:
"How were(are)staples attached to buttplug of powderhorn?Are the legs of the staples long enough to go through the base of the plug to be bent over to prevent them pulling out?"

I answered:
"Tap them into pilot holes just smaller and somewhat shorter than the legs of the staple. No need to bend them over inside."

I also answered:
"If your staple pulls out, it was too short to begin with.

By driving it through the plug and bending over on the inside you are negating the water-proof feature of a well-fitted plug."

Pretty well covers your question and related issues....
But if that was unclear:
Staples were driven into the plug. They did not go through the plug nor were they bent over because they did not go through the plug.
 
Pardon my grouchiness,You did give me a decent answer.You got the venting from countless other posts where the poster has an attitude,seems I developed one too,in this case.I don't have a powderhorn with a staple for the strap,I prefer a turning to hold the strap.Since I've never held or seen an original,I wondered if anyone on this forum had.I've owned and shot blackpowder rifles for nearly forty years,and have made a few powderhorns for over thirty years.When I make one now, I take my time and try to be authentic,that's where I was coming from.
 
flintlock62 said:
Capt. Jas. said:
Ever seen a twisted one on a real original?

I'm not going to get into a PC argument on that. If one likes it, do it. If PC is so [censored] important to one's self and there is no proof positive, DON'T do it! All I can say is that TOW sells them. If you do want to argue the point, take it up with them, not me! :yakyak:
This is really a sour response. The context of the question from the OP was PC/HC in nature. I was only keeping the context and not trying to call you out . Just trying to keep the direction.


Again on my first comment......To the OP.....I don't know of any fancy twisted staples on originals.
 
beanrifle said:
Pardon my grouchiness,You did give me a decent answer.You got the venting from countless other posts where the poster has an attitude,seems I developed one too,in this case.I don't have a powderhorn with a staple for the strap,I prefer a turning to hold the strap.Since I've never held or seen an original,I wondered if anyone on this forum had.I've owned and shot blackpowder rifles for nearly forty years,and have made a few powderhorns for over thirty years.When I make one now, I take my time and try to be authentic,that's where I was coming from.

Fair enough, no harm done.

The horns I've built all have staples. I deal with them as described and I have not had a staple work free. In reality there really isn't much stress on the staple and unless your staple is too short, it is unlikely it would ever work free. If you are concerned, rough up the staple legs, drip some gel superglue in the pilot holes and tap it home. I don't leave much more space than is necessary to accomodate the strap.
 
Black Hand said:
But if that was unclear:
Staples were driven into the plug. They did not go through the plug nor were they bent over because they did not go through the plug.

Well FWIW master horner Roland Cadle says different - he puts the staple thourght the butt plug as well as the neck and bends them over as per the originals he's examined. As far as I know he's inspected more original horns and their construction techniques than anyone alive today.....

As for the butt plugs being water tight - many originals were not particularly at the plug end - many often just friction fit with a few pins to hold in place with no sealer such as glue or wax. I currenlty have two originals that were made just that way, and have owned several more as well.
 
I agree. I have seen enough old horns, and talked to horners who have either collections of old horns, or who have also seen very old horns with all kinds of "MISSING" niceties.

You have to remember, that when working with wood, techniques used by woodworkers in other careers- there was rarely the kind of specialization we have today in these trades-- were used for every other wood making project. "Clinched nails" were commonly used to mount 'Lapstrakes" to ribs in wooden boats.It is not uncommon to find clinching tools in the estates of carpenters and cabinet makers estate inventories in the 18th and 19th centuries. Boatbuilders were considered to be among the most highly skilled wood workers in their day, because of the need for them to make wooden products that were water tight. Someone skilled in clinching nails would not think twice about running a wire "staple" through the base plug of a powder horn, and turning or "clinching" the staple over into the back side of the plug.

That does Not mean that all staples were clinched. It simply means that there were a variety of woodworking skills back then, and that some woodworkers, making powder horns when the weather did not permit them to do more lucrative work, would not think twice about clinching these staples in the base plug. Time is money. There is NO finesse required to drill a wire diameter hole- rather than a "pilot hole" we might use today-- and quickly clinch the nail ends over. Time was Money back then, as it is now. And this would have been a job for an unskilled "apprentice", rather than for a master woodworker. ( All kinds of small products were made in slack periods to keep the shop bringing in income, so that the master could afford to pay the apprentices. )
 
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