Asked a Chemist About Burning Gunpowder

Hello,

My uncle is a chemist. I asked him what byproducts I can expect from burning true black. Though I suspect most of you know this, here is his answer:

So when you burn charcoal the main product is CO2 though in some cases some carbon monoxide is there too. Sulfur combusts to form primarily SO2 sulfurdioxide - which gives gunpowder its "bite smell." The Saltpeter Potassium Nitrate, decom...poses to several different things including nitrous oxide, nitric oxide, nitrogen, and of course some Potassium Oxide - that gives a good portion of the white residue from gunpowder. The temperatures inside a gun also allow the three you asked about to react with gun material and shell material.

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Josh

So, what he's saying is... you're left with a water soluble substance that is easy cleaned from the barrel. :wink:

Well, next I asked him how the equation would change if potassium perchlorate were added. Gonna check that answer after I get off the Blackberry in the meditational chamber here (yup, I squat and surf. Now you know. Your life is now complete!)

Anyway, should be interesting.

Josh

Josh Smith said:

Well, next I asked him how the equation would change if potassium perchlorate were added. Gonna check that answer after I get off the Blackberry in the meditational chamber here (yup, I squat and surf. Now you know. Your life is now complete!)

Anyway, should be interesting.

Josh

Click to expand...

You'd have poopydex and the gun wouldn't fire. :idunno:

Hello,

Be real, real careful of potassium perchlorate. Watch out for friction and static electricity ANY time you have it near anything that could burn. Perchlorate decomposing or breaking apart is much more complex than nitrates. It can make, a...nd usually does make a mixture of several items - all nasty of themselves. Combustion is oxidation. Nitrates and chlorates and perthings cause oxidation and do not themselves oxidize, but they do break apart so I used the word decomposes. Thank you Josh for allowing me to make of some use what I taught for so many years.

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I've asked him to expound upon the nature of perchlorates decomposing.

Learned something new about my uncle -- when they would conduct powder tests at Crane Naval Base, he would always volunteer.

Here I thought he was "just" a chemistry teacher. Turns out he's THE person to be talking to about this stuff! :bow:

I have an awesome family.

Josh

Ask him if he's ever heard of or knows Bill Knight.

necchi said:

Ask him if he's ever heard of or knows Bill Knight.

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Just sent the email. Might be a while before I hear back.

Is Bill Knight the one with the inlines and disk rifles and all that? I know the terminology but not what they do. Not really interested in those things.

Thanks!

Josh

William A Knight, aka; the Mad Monk http://www.laflinandrand.com/page3.htm

The premere and foremost expert on Black powder and explosives in the United States.

If you haven't read these pages your missing alot, and I don't speak lightly when I say they should not be just quickly scanned and put on a shelf as some "interesting stuff". If you want to understand the chemistry of black powder, these documents refered too as the "mutterings of the mad monk" should be considered your bible.
Other "chemists" can only aspire to be schooled with his knowledge.
(His information and advice is used by the military on a frequent basis)

Bill Knight (Mad Monk) is a member of this forum but I haven't seen any posts by him for a long time.

I suppose he has better things to do but, yes, he is the foremost expert on real black powder and has been an adviser to companies all over the world.

I think he's back making guns again.

Capper said:

Josh Smith said:

Well, next I asked him how the equation would change if potassium perchlorate were added. Gonna check that answer after I get off the Blackberry in the meditational chamber here (yup, I squat and surf. Now you know. Your life is now complete!)

Anyway, should be interesting.

Josh

Click to expand...

You'd have poopydex and the gun wouldn't fire. :idunno:

Click to expand...

Josh, TMI.Enquiring minds really DON'T want to know this time! :shake:
Pete, so much for the kindlier, gentler Capper! :blah:

Josh Smith said:

Hello,

Be real, real careful of potassium perchlorate. Watch out for friction and static electricity ANY time you have it near anything that could burn. Perchlorate decomposing or breaking apart is much more complex than nitrates. It can make, a...nd usually does make a mixture of several items - all nasty of themselves. Combustion is oxidation. Nitrates and chlorates and perthings cause oxidation and do not themselves oxidize, but they do break apart so I used the word decomposes. Thank you Josh for allowing me to make of some use what I taught for so many years.

Click to expand...

I've asked him to expound upon the nature of perchlorates decomposing.

Learned something new about my uncle -- when they would conduct powder tests at Crane Naval Base, he would always volunteer.

Here I thought he was "just" a chemistry teacher. Turns out he's THE person to be talking to about this stuff! :bow:

I have an awesome family.

Josh

Click to expand...

I have the patent papers for Pyrodex someplace around here so I could dig up the formula if I looked long enough. It is about 30% potassium Perchlorate IIRC.
If Mad Monk were the check in it would be very informative.
Dan

CaptainKirk said:

Capper said:

You'd have poopydex and the gun wouldn't fire. :idunno:

Click to expand...

Pete, so much for the kindlier, gentler Capper! :blah:

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How do you figure?

Josh Smith said:

Well, next I asked him how the equation would change if potassium perchlorate were added. Gonna check that answer after I get off the Blackberry in the meditational chamber here (yup, I squat and surf. Now you know. Your life is now complete!)

Anyway, should be interesting.

Josh

Click to expand...

Well, how different could the smell be? :grin:

1911nutjob said:

Well, how different could the smell be?

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Actually nutjob, the properties that effect the traditional shooter with high Potassium Perchlorate powders are;
How Hygroscopic is it? How does ambiant moisture effect the powders flow rate and ignition reliability?
What kind of fouling is left? How much is left? Is it hard or soft and does IT have hygroscopic issues?

These are just a few things a shooter needs to learn about his powder choice too make it easier to maintain a consistancy in his loading technique, towards the goal of repeatable accuracy.

What kind of quirks does this stuff have on a hot muggy day vrs a cool dry day?

Josh Smith said:

Hello,

The Saltpeter Potassium Nitrate, decomposes to several different things including nitrous oxide,

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Josh[/quote]

My powder seems to decomposes to a higher degree of nitrous oxide than many powders I guess. At least that's my explanation of why I smile so much when I'm shooting. Laughing gas.

trent/OH said:

Josh Smith said:

Hello,

The Saltpeter Potassium Nitrate, decomposes to several different things including nitrous oxide,

Click to expand...

Josh

Click to expand...

My powder seems to decomposes to a higher degree of nitrous oxide than many powders I guess. At least that's my explanation of why I smile so much when I'm shooting. Laughing gas.
[/quote]

I noticed that. I also noticed the other day that, to me, black powder residue tastes just like scrambled eggs.

Interesting.

Josh

OK folks, Uncle Jerry said he was getting to the end of what he knew from memory.

He did say, however, that he would expect deflagrating perchlorates to form stuff harder on the bore than straight gunpowder.

He did not think, however, that it was an issue if the bore was cleaned right away. In fact, that was one of his questions to me, verbatim: "So Josh, one thing I don't understand -- if you clean the barrel on a regular basis, why is this something you're worrying about?"

In other words, yes, the perchlorates deflagrate into nasties. However, it doesn't matter unless you let it set for a few days without cleaning.

Honestly, I think the conversation, done over Facebook, wore him out a bit. He's not a youngin' like me -- he's over 60! :surrender:

Josh

Josh Smith said:

I noticed that. I also noticed the other day that, to me, black powder residue tastes just like scrambled eggs.

Interesting.

Josh

Click to expand...

You make some really bad scrambled eggs. :surrender:

necchi said:

1911nutjob said:

Well, how different could the smell be?

Click to expand...

Actually nutjob, the properties that effect the traditional shooter with high Potassium Perchlorate powders are;
How Hygroscopic is it? How does ambiant moisture effect the powders flow rate and ignition reliability?
What kind of fouling is left? How much is left? Is it hard or soft and does IT have hygroscopic issues?

These are just a few things a shooter needs to learn about his powder choice too make it easier to maintain a consistancy in his loading technique, towards the goal of repeatable accuracy.

What kind of quirks does this stuff have on a hot muggy day vrs a cool dry day?

Click to expand...

I was more referring to his choice of surfing location. :blah: Guess I'm the only one with a juvenile sense of humor tonight.