My New - Old T/C Seneca .36

Howdy!

I finally got to take my new to me T/C Seneca out and make smoke with it this afternoon!

I'm not a very good shot, but I still had fun . . .





I tried a bunch of different loads and patches, so I don't have anything definite worked out yet, other that it's FUN!

I ended up shooting 25 rounds through it! This target I ended up using some old prelubed .01 patches around the ball, and a dry .02 patch to protect it from the load . . .




A few different loads of powder, but the same patch . . .


I do have a few questions about my patches . . . I ended up using these with spit they measure .0195" thick:


These are the few I found in the desert . . . Notice the one on the lower left . . .


Here is the other sides:


What causes the patches to fold in half? they seem to be stuck, or the edges woven together . . . this is what the one that was shown folded in half looks like:

That patch was made from cotton that was growing down at the bottom of the bush.
When these cotton boles are growing low they get used to looking at the ground and if they are flying thru the air after leaving the gun they all want one last glance for old times sake.

Just pullin your leg. :grin:

Actually, the answer is, "who knows?" When a piece of cloth is traveling at well over the speed of sound and it slows down and falls to the ground in 20 feet or so there's probably a lot happening to it that we will never know.

Generally speaking, your patches look like they are doing their job without a problem.

My Seneca 36 could shoot totally different than yours.I tried every combo possible with a .350 RB.Got satisfactory groups till I tried a .360 ball.Bottom shot is after sight adjustment.This is at 25yds.

Zonie said:

That patch was made from cotton that was growing down at the bottom of the bush.
When these cotton boles are growing low they get used to looking at the ground and if they are flying thru the air after leaving the gun they all want one last glance for old times sake.

Just pullin your leg.

Click to expand...

Zonie,
Friend,you had me going there for a few
seconds....Good One! :applause:

Well, I still got some playing to do . . . I was shooting at 50 yards . . . these were Hornady .350's

I have a mold, and I'll mic some of the pure, and some from wheel weights and see the difference . . .

I'm sure with a better trigger puller . . . the targets would look different! The practice is FUN though!

Went back out today even though it was breezy . . . 5 - 15 mph! But . . . It is my first muzzleloader, so I kinda really like it!

Shot another 30 balls through it . . .

The first three I shot I marked, as I had loaded them with a crisco T/C .020 cotton patch, the last three (unmarked) were the same load, but I added a 3/8" diameter 4-6 oz leather wad . . . didn't help anything from what I could see in these next three shots!

Best I could do was 1.55" at 50 yards!

We need to know bore diameter, groove diameter( and depth) as well as what your spent patches look like, and how thick the patch material was, before we can help you understand why a .350 ball in YOUR gun doesn't group as well as a .360 ball.

Target shooters often use OVERSIZED balls in their gun barrels, to get the tightest groups. On a range, they can take their time loading those oversized balls down the muzzles using a mallet and a short starter where the concave cone on the nose of the starter has been cut to match the exact diameter of that caliber( size) ball. That way, the heavy hitting on the short starter doesn't damage the Round Ball, or tear the patches.

Small game hunting, and Varmint hunting is rarely a " rapid fire" event. So, if you have to reload a tight ball and patch combination in the field, you usually have the time to do so, mallet, and short-starter, and all.

I suspect that the patch thickness you are using with those .350" diameter balls is NOT thick enough. A thicker, lubed patch will usually help tighten group size. You might also consider using a "Firewall" between the powder charge and your PRB. A firewall consists of an OP wad, or using some kind of filler, like corn meal, or corn muffin flour, farina, cream of wheat, etc.

The firewall not only protects the patch from burning, it also seals the gases effectively so that gas does not scream past your PRB in the bottom of the grooves, tearing, or burning the patch, and melting or cutting the lead ball. All these bad things affect accuracy.

The tighter .360 ball would push the thin patch you have been using into the grooves tighter, and stop this gas "blow-by", explaining the improved group size with the oversized ball. But, its only ONE explanation of the vastly improved group size you show. Give us the other information I have noted above, and we can help you narrow it down to a specific cause. Those .36 cal. rifles are fun to shoot- and more fun when you use the right ball/patch combination for your gun. :thumbsup:

Paul,

How would I (or anybody else) measure bore diameter and the grooves?

Can I just take a pair of calipers and measure the bore, or do I need to "slug the bore" I'm familiar with the "slugging" in a modern weapon where I have access to both ends of the barrel . . .

Or do I just drive in a piece of soft lead, and then use a "ball puller"?

BTW here is a photo of my T/C .020 (actually .0195") patches lubed with crisco, fired w/ 30gr fffg:


And I used two of those .010" (actually .0103" pre lubed patches that I added crisco to . . . this is the pair:

Well . . . I got to thinking . . .

So I dug out some of my wadcutters I cast for my 38 special which were cast at .359 diameter from recovered range jacked boolits, I had previously tumble lubed them with Alox, just for fun I tried to see if it would fit in the barrel . . . it slid right it! I then put it on end on the concrete, wacked it with a hammer, turned it over, wacked it again, that bumped it up to .373 diameter.

I then drilled a small hole in the end to make starting a screw in it easier . . .


I then oiled it up, and drove it into the bore:


Screwed in a decking screw:


And pulled it out with help from my wife holding the barrel with gloves, and holding a pair of visegrips, while I wacked the vise grips!


With my micrometer I measure the best I could (This barrel has an uneven number of grooves) I got .3709" total outside of my slug. Useing my calipers I got .370", measuring inside of the grooves of the slug (Lands on barrel) measured .360"

Is there a better way to do this?

Well, I just use my caliper to measure across the flats and then place one end of the caliber into a groove and measure to the nearest flat.

A little bit of math gives me the groove diameter.

your method was as good as it needs to be , the rule of thumb was the ball dia. plus 1/2 the thickness of the patch should equal the bore dia. so at .350" ball and a .370" bore using .020" patches you are getting no grip the fired patches should show a very distinct rifling patern I would sugest at least a .360" ball. cheers Ian.

YOu can slug a barrel on a MLer by FIRST putting a heavy BRASS rod down the bore( don't use anything harder, so you don't damage the lands) How long the brass rod needs to be depends on the caliber of the barrel. You drive an oversized bullet, or ball down the barrel about as far as you did with that wadcutter, here, ( oil the barrel before doing this, which you have done) then use the brass rod to drive the bullet or ball out of the barrel on to a soft towel, by shaking the barrel up and down, with the muzzle obviously pointing DOWN!

With the .370 Groove diameter, you should be able to shoot .350 balls properly. The OP wads sold by Track of the Wolf, are made to be .010" Larger than bore diameter, so they should work just fine in a barrel that has a .360 bore diameter, and that .370" groove diameter.

Again, the cloth patches in these new pictures tells me that you are using too small a diameter patch. I don't CARE if someone sold you factory cut patches marked, " .36 caliber". These are too small. They don't give you much leeway to make a mistake trying to center the ball in the patch when you seat the ball at the muzzle. Use a .40 caliber or .45 caliber patch for this gun! PLEASE.

I am looking at both the center of the patch, to see its color, and at the gray or black ring around the center of the patch. The small diameter is allowing the frayed edges to obscure any evidence that might be present of gas blow by, except some out-of-round fraying, which suggests that gases are escaping at those "flat: spots in the fraying.

With a larger diameter patch, we would get a better "READ" on the patch, and could do a much more confident diagnosis of the accuracy problem you are experiencing.

Until you use a larger diameter patch, you might try a couple of shots using a filler, using whatever dry cereals you might already have in your kitchen. About 15 grains by volume is all you would need in a .36. Just measure it out after you put the powder down the barrel, and dump the filler on top of the powder. DON'T shake the barrel to mix the powder and filler!

Then load your PRB down onto the filler, and shoot for a group. 3 shots will be enough to tell you if you have found the problem. If you have an chronograph, it will also tell you if you are finding the problem, shooting before and after groups. A well sealed load will give you more consistent velocities, and a much lower Standard Deviation in Velocity.

Don't worry about using a patch that is Too Big. You can always trim off excess material at the muzzle with a sharp razor, or knife, after using the short starter to push the patch and ball down into the muzzle. If you have a fabric store near, buy some mattress ticking, or Pocket Drill, using your micrometer, or caliper to measure the thickness. Buying your own material is much cheaper than buying pre-cut patches from any one. You can tear the fabric in strips, and cut your patch off at the muzzle, as it was done for many years before pre-cut patches came on the scene. :thumbsup:

PPS: I took a second look at the crown on your muzzle, and see what might be burrs on the face of the lands of the bore. You might want to clean that, looking to see if cotton fibers are grabbed by the burrs, as you pull a patch in or out of the muzzle. If so, polish the crown to get rid of the sharp edges that are grabbing the fibers from the patches( Use cleaning patches made from cotton flannel to this test.)

I am not impressed with the crown on that muzzle, in general, looking at the pictures of it. I would polish it and round it, using abrasive cloths or paper, or screens, back by the head of a lag bolt, or the back end of a small file handle. A .36 Cal. RB should be almost capable of being pushed into the barrel with just your thumb pushing on the ball and lubed patch.

Thanks for all your effort to help me Paul, at least for me that would take awhile just to type out! I do appreciate your help and knowledge.

I just got done cleaning and putting my gun away, from another afternoon of FUN, of course it will be more fun when I get this tuned in . . . Today I decide to use yet again a different target think that I might be able to see it better, plus I reduced the distance to 25 yards!

Here is where I shoot, it is hard to find the patches, although while typing this I just thought I should bring a tarp and lay that down, (held down by rocks!) to catch my patches, I am shooting into a 12" cube cardboard box filled with rubber mulch to recycle my lead. It is in the left upper corner.


My best target of the day. not really that good for only 25 yards . . . I found I had some T/C T17 lube, so tried that today on those T/C .020" patches . . .


Here is a pic of those thin .010 patches that were pre-lubed, but had bled of into the packaging, that I added some crisco to:


And just started in:


I guess they should they be centered better, huh?

I think one of the reasons my targets didn't do as good as yesterday, was I got carried away with the lube . . . what do you think? This was the crisco lube, but the T-17 had this much on them too, it was messy . . .


I'll work on getting some bigger patches, should I stick with the .020" thickness? I do have cornmeal, I also tried a leather wad I punched out, but it is so hard to actually find the patches from each shot, I just pick them up when I see them, depends on the angle and the lighting . . . The T-17 patches are easier to find because they are blue! (they smell nice too!) So I can't for certain say that one particular patch is from which shot and load . . . next time with the tarp, hopefully I can get the patch collected right after each shot.

I got a "package bundle" when I bought the gun, the guy before me had inherited it from his Step Dad, who I assume bought all the stuff . . .

It was 72 and sunny with very little wind today, humidly was 11% it was a pleasant afternoon!

I also got good groups with a Maxi ball and got slightly tighter with a felt wad.
I tried .020,.018,.015,and .010.I tried FFg and FFFg.Tried with and with out felt wads.Tried .350 and .360 RB's.Got to try it at 50yds yet.I only tried 25yds because of using it for early squirrels.

I thought you said you weren't a good shot!!?? :hmm:

The third picture shows the off-center patch in your muzzle. This kind of error can throw shots out of the group. Try .015 and .018" thick patching materials, and see what groups you get. If you will simply "draft" a member of your family, a friend, or some local kid you can pay a $1.00 to join you at the range, and spot your patches for you, in return for letting him fire a shot or two, you won't have much trouble locating patches.

If you don't have Dutch Schoultz System to help you learn how to find an accurate load, contact him and buy it. I believe the current price is $19.95, and its the cheapest education you will ever get.
http://www.blackpowderrifleaccuracy.com/

Polish that crown, and pick up those spent patches. They will tell you Everything you need to know about what is going on, and Dutch's System will help you learn how to correct the errors.

I wish now I got a $1.00 for every new shooter who looked at us as STRANGE, when we immediately walked down range to pick up his spent patch after he fired a test shot. The looks got even more interesting when we " Read" the patches for the shooter, and began giving him advise, or taking the gun in hand ourselves to correct some problem that was evident.

Success breed respect, in time, and when the new guy kept coming back, and kept having success with his gun, after we modified something, he eventually learned the "what" and "whys" of what we were doing. Usually, it took about 2 years before he felt confident enough to help another new guy, without depending on us to help him do it. This kind of comradery is one of the benefits that comes with joining a BP club.

After I found out what patch thickness my gun liked, I kept all the extra, unused, patches in my range box, and would give them to new shooters to try when they were using the Wrong( defined by those spent patches) patch thickness. A lot of new shooters to my club shot up more of those patches than I ever did out of my guns.

When you have a dozen guys on the range, someone always has the right thickness of patching to give to the new guy to try, and see if that doesn't "solve" his accuracy problems. :hmm: :thumbsup:

Mike Brines said:

I thought you said you weren't a good shot!!?? :hmm:

Click to expand...

Mike,

I don't consider 1.3" for three shots at 25 yards good . . . for ten shots . . . maybe good, but not great . . .

The day before I shot three into 1.55" at twice the distance!

- - - - - - - -

Thanks Paul, I think with the tarp, (10' X 17') I'll find them all right, otherwise I'll have a "date" with my wife, she has good eyes! I'm not sure but I think the closest range is in Three Points, AZ which is almost 100 mile away, not sure where there is a BP club . . . I just go out into the desert where they did some digging years ago, and left piles of dirt for my backstop.

I'll work on the crown, I have some 600 & 100 grit lapping compound I used when I chopped my wife's barrel.

I just ordered Dutch's system . . .

I also ordered a bunch of patches from TOW, .010", .015", .018", and .020" in the 40 - 49 cal size . . .

I also added a few muzzle protectors and nipples . . . just for spares!

I decided to smooth up the crown, I found that one of my Cast H&G 503 SWC for my 44mag was about the right size, I used some Brownells 600 grit, then switched to 1000 grit with another boolit, and spun it in my drill!








I got some 40-49 cal patches from TOTW, and lubed them yesterday with T/C T-17 lube, I went out this morning around 10, and it was 50º and about 35% humidity, I got back shortly after 1, and it was 68º and about 20% humidity.

I shot 30gr of KIK fffg powder in all loads today, only changing patches and adding corn meal which I used a 380 auto case to measure that with, if memory serves me right that is about 15 gr equivalent. I swabbed between each shot with some flannel sheets about 1.25" square and spit.

Here is a patch started down the barrel, they are a tad big I think, but what do I know, I'm all new at this, what do you think?


I'm not sure how many pictures I can have in each post . . . so, I'll stop here . . . to be continued!

OK here is the .015 cotton patch which is kinda torn up:


And the target:


Same patch and load, but with cornmeal filler on top of powder:




Here is the Pillow ticking that they say is .018, but I have not measured any of the patches yet, they have a tiny tear (I may have to work more on the crown):




Same as above, but with cornmeal:




Here is the .020 no tearing!:




And with cornmeal:




Not sure if that flyer was my fault or not, but . . . probably!

To be continued!