Relic Plains Rifle

Mr. Scratch · Jan 9, 2010

New guy here. I picked up this relic condition Plains Rifle a while back, and was wondering a couple of things.

*Is this an original 19th Century rifle? It seem unlikely that a repro would have time to end up in this condition, but you never know.

*The stock has insets into it where very simple decorative fittings used to be; an arrowhead, an arrow, a comet-like shape, and a heart. Do these have any significance?

*Can/should I replace the stock and cock? The stock is broken at the front of the lock, and is now held together with baling wire. If so, where can I get appropriate parts to make this an attractive wallhanger?

*I was thinking about making this my first electrolysis rust removal project, but I don't want to be that guy on Antiques Roadshow that refinished the $500,000 Stickley sideboard - am I okay to remove the rust here?

*Does this have any value at all beyond that of a makeshift pry bar or a heavy-duty curtain rod?

It does not appear to have any maker's marks that I can find, and the bore measures about 10mm. I know next to nothing about muzzleloaders, so any help would be appreciated.

BrownBear · Jan 9, 2010

No clue what it is, but could that be a typo on the 30mm bore? There's 25.4mm/inch, so that would make the bore 1 1/4" or so. Looks like the barrel isn't even that big.

As an offhand judgement, I'd say that has lots of aesthetic value as is for a wall hanger, but not much as a collecter, and even less with any attempt at reconditioning. It's darned cool like it is!

Mr. Scratch · Jan 9, 2010

"No clue what it is, but could that be a typo on the 30mm bore?"

Yup, typo. Meant to say 10mm. I corrected the text. Thanks.

larry wv · Jan 9, 2010

I would pick a few brains on how to preserve it and LEAVE it alone. Wall hanger for sure. Any history where you got it? Larry Wv

redwing · Jan 9, 2010

Not a Plains Rifle, although it could have ended there maybe. This looks to be a late possible southern rifle. The back action lock and the Dbl. Screw long tang, long drop. This was an economy rifle in its day. The fact that its about a .40 Cal. [10MM] if like metrics, indicates it was not likely made for the west. Leave the old rifle as it is. The rifle was made late near the Civil War era. My thoughts, who knows. :shake:

paulvallandigham · Jan 9, 2010

The trigger guard style shows up in the 1850s, particularly in California. The back action lock was sold for use in making shotguns and rifles. They date from the mid 1840s, onward.

There is a lot of metal around that bore, so it can be easily rebored, and rifled to a larger caliber to make this a shooter, again. Unless you find some better history or " Provenance" for the gun, or find some identifying information under all that rust, Its NOT much of a collector's piece, and most people would not want that pile of rust and mold on their Walls, IMHO.

I will go against the crowd on this one. I suggest you consider having a new lock( or a repaired and restored lock), and stock, and other missing furniture replaced, and then have someone clean up that barrel, and rebore it to a larger caliber. .45 or .50 should do the trick, but it all depends on how deep the pits are inside the current bore. You would then have a shooter, using a barrel that is more than 160 years old. Now, that would be a conversation piece. Keep the before pictures so people can understand where you started in the restoration, and then better understand why you chose to restore it to a functioning gun, rather than leave it a rusted, broken piece of junk.

BTW, this kind of recycling was done all the time in the 18th and 19th centuries, and well into the middle of the 20th century, too.

I was on the other side of this issue about 20 years ago when my brother, Peter, bought a piece of rusted Junk at Friendship. It was a LH percussion small bore rifle, with the hammer broken off, big chunks of wood torn from the forestock, missing parts and pieces, and a barrel that looked almost as bad as this one does.

He had a competent stock maker repair that stock.( I thought he was nuts! at the time.)He sent the barrel off to Bobby Hoyt to see what could be done. Bobby was able to re-bore and re- rifle the barrel to .42 caliber, from what was probably .34 caliber. Peter found a replacement Hammer at Dixie GWs, and fitted it to the action himself. He turned that rusted piece of junk into a shooter, and everywhere he shoots that gun, people see that old barrel, and want to know about the gun. He has since determines, consulting experts, that the barrel originally was on a flintlock rifle, Full stock. It was cut off, and re breeched, when the LH percussion action was built and the gun made with a half stock sometimes in the 1870-80s. The best estimate of the age of the barrel puts it at no later than the first decade of the 19th century, based on tool and grinding marks still apparent on the barrel.

If " restoration" bothers you, then call it " Re-cycling!" That seems to be a positive " spin " to use these days. :hatsoff:

buckweet · Jan 9, 2010

paulvallandigham said:
The trigger guard style shows up in the 1850s, particularly in California. The back action lock was sold for use in making shotguns and rifles. They date from the mid 1840s, onward.

There is a lot of metal around that bore, so it can be easily rebored, and rifled to a larger caliber to make this a shooter, again. Unless you find some better history or " Provenance" for the gun, or find some identifying information under all that rust, Its NOT much of a collector's piece, and most people would not want that pile of rust and mold on their Walls, IMHO.

I will go against the crowd on this one. I suggest you consider having a new lock( or a repaired and restored lock), and stock, and other missing furniture replaced, and then have someone clean up that barrel, and rebore it to a larger caliber. .45 or .50 should do the trick, but it all depends on how deep the pits are inside the current bore. You would then have a shooter, using a barrel that is more than 160 years old. Now, that would be a conversation piece. Keep the before pictures so people can understand where you started in the restoration, and then better understand why you chose to restore it to a functioning gun, rather than leave it a rusted, broken piece of junk.

BTW, this kind of recycling was done all the time in the 18th and 19th centuries, and well into the middle of the 20th century, too.

I was on the other side of this issue about 20 years ago when my brother, Peter, bought a piece of rusted Junk at Friendship. It was a LH percussion small bore rifle, with the hammer broken off, big chunks of wood torn from the forestock, missing parts and pieces, and a barrel that looked almost as bad as this one does.

He had a competent stock maker repair that stock.( I thought he was nuts! at the time.)He sent the barrel off to Bobby Hoyt to see what could be done. Bobby was able to re-bore and re- rifle the barrel to .42 caliber, from what was probably .34 caliber. Peter found a replacement Hammer at Dixie GWs, and fitted it to the action himself. He turned that rusted piece of junk into a shooter, and everywhere he shoots that gun, people see that old barrel, and want to know about the gun. He has since determines, consulting experts, that the barrel originally was on a flintlock rifle, Full stock. It was cut off, and re breeched, when the LH percussion action was built and the gun made with a half stock sometimes in the 1870-80s. The best estimate of the age of the barrel puts it at no later than the first decade of the 19th century, based on tool and grinding marks still apparent on the barrel.

If " restoration" bothers you, then call it " Re-cycling!" That seems to be a positive " spin " to use these days. :hatsoff:

great story on your brothers rifle.

RickD · Jan 9, 2010

Brothers rifle?

Mr. Scratch · Jan 9, 2010

paulvallandigham said:
I was on the other side of this issue about 20 years ago when my brother, Peter, bought a piece of rusted Junk at Friendship. It was a LH percussion small bore rifle, with the hammer broken off, big chunks of wood torn from the forestock, missing parts and pieces, and a barrel that looked almost as bad as this one does.

Hm. Restore it as a shooter. I really hadn't thought of that. Hmm. :hmm:

When your brother did his rifle, did he smooth out the exterior pits on the barrel, or leave them as-is? Got any pics of the rifle? I'd love to see it.

And just a note on the electrolysis, guys; electolytic rust conversion/removal is a method used by some museums because it will allegedly return surface rust to iron, and scale off the heavy flak rust without the risk of removing good metal. Whether it is appropriate for this gun or not is a matter of debate, I just want folks to know I'm not talking about using a wire-wheel to make it shiney. :wink:

Also, I'm afraid there isn't any provenance on the gun, it's a flea market pick-up. I was hoping the recesses of the lost stock inlays would mean something to somebody in this regard.

paulvallandigham · Jan 9, 2010

The outer surfaces of my brother's rifle have been left with their original patina. He lives in Florida, and that is where the gun is. I can't get pictures of it to show you. Sorry.

When I first saw it, At Friendship within minutes after he bought it, it had NO obvious rust on the outside of the barrel. Someone may have soaked it in oil to remove the rust, but there was also no evidence of any chemical( Naval jelly, for instance) or Abrasives used on the outside of the barrel or other metal parts of the gun. The buttstock was about the only part of the gun that had not been abused.

Because the barrel tells its own story, Peter has purposely left it alone, pits, grinding marks on the bottom, dovetail slots under the false rib, and all. And the original sights, at least dating back to is conversion to a LH percussion action. I don't think that front sight has Ever been changed. The rear sight is of a later, post Civil War design, however, and hand made.

There were problems with the custom made breech, which he has had to address over the years of shooting the gun, but the exterior of the gun's barrel, metal parts, action and stock appear much as they did the day he bought it.

The Stock restoration involved fitting similar grained pieces of wood into the stock to replace the torn away stuff. You would have to know where to look, and what to look for to see the seams between the patch and the stock.

A final note: this kind of "Re-cycling" is Not cheap. I know( because I asked!) that Pete has not kept track of all the money he has spent on that gun, much less his own time. He shot it one year at the Sgt. York Memorial Chunk Gun Shoot held each March in Pall Mall, Tenn. A lot of the shooters stopped to examine the gun, and ask questions about it.

IMHO, Do this kind of work with a gun because its YOURS, and you believe a gun should be shot- not to make a wall hanger to end up in some museum some day!

buckweet · Jan 10, 2010

RickD said:
Brothers rifle?

ya, his brothers rifle, towards the end of the story.
his brother peter.

Dphar · Jan 10, 2010

Mr. Scratch said:
paulvallandigham said:

I was on the other side of this issue about 20 years ago when my brother, Peter, bought a piece of rusted Junk at Friendship. It was a LH percussion small bore rifle, with the hammer broken off, big chunks of wood torn from the forestock, missing parts and pieces, and a barrel that looked almost as bad as this one does.

Click to expand...

Hm. Restore it as a shooter. I really hadn't thought of that. Hmm. :hmm:

When your brother did his rifle, did he smooth out the exterior pits on the barrel, or leave them as-is? Got any pics of the rifle? I'd love to see it.

And just a note on the electrolysis, guys; electolytic rust conversion/removal is a method used by some museums because it will allegedly return surface rust to iron, and scale off the heavy flak rust without the risk of removing good metal. Whether it is appropriate for this gun or not is a matter of debate, I just want folks to know I'm not talking about using a wire-wheel to make it shiney. :wink:

Also, I'm afraid there isn't any provenance on the gun, it's a flea market pick-up. I was hoping the recesses of the lost stock inlays would mean something to somebody in this regard.

I would leave it as is.
Shooting a barrel of this vintage has risks in itself even if recut to a usable bore.

Dan

redwing · Jan 11, 2010

Don't do it :shake: Its a waste of money and time. Put your money into a good firearm of modern steel. That old wood may not take much recoil after all these years. The old triggers will need replacing, the lock needs replacing the barrel recut and filed. That is a whole new gun made of junk parts. :idunno:

Relic Plains Rifle

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