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Kentucky45

36 Cal.
Joined
Dec 6, 2009
Messages
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Hi everyone. This is my first post. Great forum. I've had several cap lock rifles in the past, but I'm just getting back into BP after a 14 year dry spell due to a disabling injury. I had to sell all my BPs back then. In the past month I've bought three traditional rifles. I don't have much use for the modern types. It's good to see smoke again. I bought a TC Renegade 50 cal. cap.. Also a TC Hawken 54 cal. cap that I bought for someone who wanted one but then didn't want one, so I'll sell it to someone else, a rendezvous or reenactment rifle I guess. Because someone really put in some effort to make this rifle look old. Shoots great too. And last a Kentucky 45 cal. Flintlock. My very fist Flintlock. Not an expensive gun but I'm just as proud of it. After the time this rifle and I have spent together, we've become very close. It needed some love so I just finished about 60 hours on it. Not only were the two pieces of wood a different natural color, they are two completely different types of wood. So I had to make a dark walnut stock match a maple for-end. Never again, but I did it. I finished the rifle yesterday. Everything is working right and in good condition now except the trigger and hammer pull. It shoots fine but it's hard to keep from pulling right because of the stiff trigger. The hammer is stiff to pull back. The trigger is very heavy and I don't know how to correct it. I doubt it was used enough to loosen up. No ware. The rifle has no name and on the left side of the barrel "Japan F.R" with 3 broken circles with "S" inside them and then a serial number. On the right side "BLACK POWDER ONLY" Ultra-Hi. I'm pretty good on the cosmetics but I sure could use some suggestions on lightening the trigger pull. Thanks
 
Any chance of gettting a pic or two of the lock? (inside and out please!)
Welcome the the forum!
 
I'll have to take it to a friends house and send a pic from there. I'll try to get it on tommorrow. Thank you, glad to be here.
 
The Ultra High was made in Japan, and imported and sold here by several companies, back in the 1980s, I believe. They have problems, but there are several members here who have cleaned them up, tuned them up, and have them shooting well.

I remember seeing JUST one of the rifles, at Friendship, and its was a percussion model. There were better made guns available, so I didn't spend a lot of time looking at it.
 
This one just needed a little attention. Except for the heavy pull on the lock and trigger assemblies, all parts of the rifle are in excellent condition now. I'm a little different concerning guns than most people I guess. I always look at the less expensive guns and the higher priced ones. Fortunatly I'm able to buy whatever I like. I know there are more expensive and better made BP rifles but this one was hard to pass up for the price. And I've always wanted to try a flintlock. I have expensive guns in my safe that don't shoot as well as some lesser priced ones, so name brands and retail cost aren't a concern for me. I look at each individual gun for it's condition and how it performs, nothing else. If it doesn't do what I want I sell it and buy another one. And I've never been ashamed or embarrassed to shoot a less expensive rifle along side higher priced guns. My favorite hunting "go to gun", a Model 84 Winchester Cooey 12 ga. single shot break down with a 36" full choke barrel, cost $35 at a gun show in the late '80s. I've killed deer, hogs, coyotes, bobcats, a kajillion squirrels and turtles, crows and nearly every thing else available in this area. It's killed more game than all of my other guns together, and I've walked out of the woods many times with game in my hand when the guys with me were carrying expensive guns came out with less or nothing. This Ultra-Hi flintlock is extremely accurate. And I haven't shot it enough to know the exact powder grains and powder it likes yet, so it will eventually shoot even better. And now it looks pretty dang good too, to me anyway, and that's all that counts. What problems do you remember the ULTRA-HI rifles having? I'd like to know so that I can watch for and possibly prevent any problems in the future.
 
It's always good to know what you have. I did a search and found most concerns were on the Ultra-Hi pistols and a few on 69 smooth bores. Nothing unrepairable. I didn't find any problems with the Kentucky 45s. A few threads I searched and especially Post #645305 by Catman on 12/03/08 have good information, http://www.muzzleloadingforum.com/fusionbb/showpost.php?post/645305/. The Ultra-Hi was apparently Miroka. The responses on Miroka guns differ but seem to be pretty well liked on that discussion thread. Some compare it with the early Traditions styles but of better quality. On one thread a member said he had been shooting his Ultra-Hi Kentucky 45 for 20 years with no problems at all. manure shoot I guess. You get a good one or you get a bad one. Most consensus is they are a good starter flintlock but most people graduate to the better quality guns. Makes sense to me.
 
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The weak issues with all the Import Japanese, and European made guns is the Flintlocks. They just don't seem to quite understand the ignition system, and try to slap a flint hammer on basically a percussion design.

Percussion locks are very similar to side action breechloading actions, so they are pretty easy to make, and they work without a lot of problems. On the other hand, Flintlocks involve getting three Spring systems to move parts to work together, to create sparks that go into the pan. The manufacturers don't seem to understand how that is done efficiently, and apparently try to copy antique guns. Often, the parts become smaller because of the casting shrinkage, but no adjustment is made in the position of the parts on the lockplate to account for the different dimensions of the new, investment cast parts. Most of the V-springs are HUGE- again because of manufacturing deficiencies, and in some cases, a desire to make sure that the springs are strong enough to make sparks, even if it means eating up flints in record time. Its not unusual to find locks with springs that require more than 30 lbs. of tension to cock them to full cock.

I have an article on Shooting and Tuning Flintlocks on the forum. Go up to the member resources block at the top of the index page to this forum. Under articles, you will find a list of good articles submitted by members. All are worth reading. My article should help you examine the lock on your gun, and spot deficiencies. Whether you want to correct them yourself is totally up to you.

:thumbsup:
 
Sometimes you can lighten a trigger by moving the pivot point of the trigger. By this I mean, to gain a mechanical advantage (more leverage) move the pivot higher and toward the sear arm. This is not always possible due to trigger design, however moving the pivot point just an eighth of an inch will help a lot. I have done this several times to good result. Good luck.
 
trigger weight can be lightened by changing the sear engagement surface geometry. changing the angles of the sear and/or tumbler's engagement surfaces minutely so that the mainspring's tension is also trying to push the sear out of it's notch. it is then just a matter of finding the right searspring pressure that keeps the sear engaged. the angle change can be very little...1/4 or 1/2 of a degree is all it might need. the angles are very critical and are stoned with a fixture and magnification. what you want to acheive is an engaement that will just stay engaged under pressure from the main spring with no sear spring pressure. then the searspring is only engaging the sear and doing very little work to keep it engaged. a perefect neutral geometry is desireable, that is, the enggement angle and seperation travel is exactly right angles to a line drawn through the centers of both sear pivot and tumbler pivot, but that isn't doesn't always exhist. what you don't want is an engagement angle tha the mainsprings pressure pushes the sear out of it's way and the sear spring has to be heavy enough to work against the mainspring. it's a delicate balance and as usual, corporate liability will sway manufactures to set the angle up so that the sear actually has to lift the tumbler ever so slightly to release it. that is where the heavy trigger is generated. usually the pivot locations are correct and the engagement angle are too accute, needing just a bit if stoning to lighten the pull. when done right a large increase in sear load will make very little fely difference in trigger weight. i have a trigger on one of my archery releases that will hold 100 lbs. and it will feel the same as when holding a 30 lb. bow.
many times it is just a matter of polishing the surfaces, manufacyring can't take the time to polish them like they should be and the rougher surfaces help to keep the engagement. you might want to try polishing the surfaces to a mirror surface first and make sure that all the sharp corners are eased back and not making contact with thier mating surface. some red crochous and a little oil is goof for this. gunsmiths years ago have made themselves famous for thier ability to tune triggers.
 
I posted a site above with pics of the lock and trigger. Look if interested.-First, I appreciate all the replies. Everyone has given something for me to look at and consider. I'll use the information, I'm no gunsmith.-The hammer is heavy, so this V spring may be too stiff. So do I get another V spring, and where would I get one, or can this V spring be adjusted? I'll read the articles here on tuning flintlocks today. Being my first flintlock, that's a good place to start.-I don't see any way to move the pivot point of the trigger because I don't think there is any factory adjustment built in. Without factory adjustment is there another way of doing this?--I'll polish the contact point surfaces to a mirror finish today. What is "red crochous"? The trigger housing is tight on the sides at the pivot pin and the first 1/4" of trigger pull is very heavy because of it. After that the trigger is free. I'll remove the pin and polish the trigger sides, and if needed take a little off. There aren't many movable parts on this lock or trigger so something here is fixable.
 
check out the breech of that Miroku very carefully. My old Miroku from the 70's didn't have a breechplug. The back end/tang was just welded onto the end of the barrel and ground smooth. Once I figured that out I quit shooting it. It actually shot pretty good too.
 
hey len,
sorry about that, my post above wasn't directd towards your post about moving the sear pivot. that is certainly one way to lighten a trigger.
the post was directed to kentucky45.....i just klick on the reply tag in your post out of habit .
 
My intial reaction is the lock needs to be disassembled and all parts deburred and plolished on the contact surfaces. It looks very rough with stamped parts and all. The pics shows a couple of areas of rubbing. It also appears the trigger contacts is not at the best point to provide an easy lift. Since it is already installed in the stock I do not know how to move it w/o potential gapping and repinning it. You may be able to move it and then increase the trigger plate slot length.
I am sure others will have additional help.
 
red crochous...just a typo...
red crocus cloth is a fine emery style "sandpaper" made specifically for metal. The name is from the red color of the grit.
 
Hi Ron; No offense taken. You are of course correct about the angles on the tumbler Etc. I sometimes think that when suggesting repairs to a beginner, esp. on line, I give the simplest procedures. If the person is capable of doing more complicated work they will go ahead and make those suggested changes. more than likely the full cock notch cock is the culprit. Even then, the triggers usually have their pivot too far forward. It's still good to give someone all the options to choose from. Keep up your info I am not too old to learn. I forget right away, but that's another story.
 
First off, what is the distance from the trigger pivot to the sear lever mark on the trigger bar? The trigger is pinned in the trigger plate and if the above distance is too long, a hard pull is the result. Also the trigger should move w/o any friction or interference from the trigger plate slot. I'd check out these 2 items before "monkeying" around w/ the lock and the chance of really screwing things up....Fred
 
The parts are stamped and rough. I polished the contact points. That helped some. The trigger was rubbing the trigger plate at two points, one on each side of the trigger, one high and one low, because the trigger doesn't set in the slot straight, rather at a slight angle. I fixed that. But someone here mentioned "BIGGER PROBLEMS"??? Well I found one. While pulling the hammer back the mainspring broke right at the point of the V. Good timing. But I'd rather it broke now than on a creek 150 miles from home. I called Dixie Gun Works and they said they'd like to see the spring. I mailed it yesterday. paulvallandigham's post #792364 above may be the truest thing said yet. "Japan didn't seem to understand the ignition system." I've pulled back the hammers on several flintlocks lately and none have the heavy pull this one does. A majority of you seem to have the same consensus about the angles and distances not being correct on both the lock and trigger parts. I agree, but the mfgr didn't build in any adjustment. If Dixie has the spring and I can get this rifle shooting again, I may have to adjust to a heavier trigger than I like. I'm in it pretty cheap, and it still looks good. Besides, I have too much time in it to give up now. This is my first flintlock and when I buy my next one, and there will be a next one, I'll know a little more about what to look for.
 
no offense taken len!, we all have our ideas about how to fix things and none of them are necessarily wrong, or absolutely right. sometimes a combination of suggestions results in the correct direction.
i guess i looked at the idea of drilling a new hole accurately and without excessive slop as a bit more difficult to do than a little carefull stone work and some polishing,at least for someone new to any of these kind of problems. my comment on the hole locations wasn't meant to over-ride your help :thumbsup: it was more meant to suggest that i would think the correct basic geometry should be pretty universly known to someone manufacturing locks and triggers and pretty well controlled by todays methods of production, that said, i would suspect the trouble to lye in the "hand-fitting" arena, where the notch and sear are done by who knows who. i'm as green as they come on this forum, right now yet. although, i do have a good general understanding ofmost aspects of gunsmithing, it's processies and some experience, my input may be generally helpful, but not specific to these guns,....yet.....i'll catch up,though! :grin:
 
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