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Barrel Twist, Rd. ball vs. Conical

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utahhntnful

32 Cal.
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What twists work best for each?
Can I shoot Conical bullets through a barrel that is designed for a round ball? what will happen?
 
Generally, the length of the bullet vs. bore diameter is going to control what is the BEST ROT for any given conical. If you shoot a conical in a barrel with a slow ROT designed for shooting RBs, the conicals may not be spun fast enough by the rifling to stabilize them, and they will yaw in flight, and "keyhole " on impact. Group size will be larger, and poor, and unpredictable. That is, you won't be able to be sure where the POI will be in relation to your point of aim( POA).

Generally, RB barrels will have a ROT that is 120 times the caliber. But that is just a general rule. Adjustments also have to be made for velocity. And, a RB can be fired from any ROT barrel- as proven with pistol barrels with very fast ROTs. The Slower the ROT for a RB, the more foregiving the barrel is for accurately placing balls on target with different powder charges at the same POI. So, while my 1:48 ROT .50 cal. barrel shoots RB accurately enough, It won't handle the very heaviest of powder charges sometimes used in heavy barreled rifles, with a slower rate of twist- say 1:66", or 1:70".

ROT for conicals generally begin at 1:34, and go faster from there. You see 1:32, 1:28, 1:24, and 1:22" ROTs. The faster the rate of twist, the longer( and therefore heavier) the bullet that rifle barrel will stabilize.

For example, the modern .458 Winchester Magnum Cartridge barrels have a 1:14" ROT, while the standard ROT for the .45-70 cartridge is 1:22, with target shooters and long range BP Cartridge silhouette shooters opting for a 1:18" ROT. Both cartridges shoot the same diameter bullets. Only the shape, and weight of the bullets used differ, depending on use of the rifle. BTW, the standard ROT for the .38 spl. revolver cartridge is also 1:14".

If you have a particular caliber in mind, let us know. We can tell you the optimum ROT for RB, and using the Greenhill formula, tell you the better ROT for a conical.

Now, as a word of caution, If you are using one of those modern zip guns, that we don't discuss here, that calls for using a plastic shoe, and a copper jacketed pistol bullet of some lesser caliber, all bets are off. You go with the factory recommendation, or do you own research. I have seen, and heard of too many shooters "sighting in" those "guns" where the best they do is to hit close to the 12 inch square paper target at 100 yds. They then leave the range, saying they ought to be able to get a deer at 50 yards with that kind of accuracy! :shocked2: :youcrazy: I don't want those shooters in the woods, but I have no control over that. :( The best I can do is find out where they are hunting, and hunt somewhere else. :wink:
 
utahhntnful said:
What twists work best for each?
Can I shoot Conical bullets through a barrel that is designed for a round ball? what will happen?

The factory standard seems to mostly settle upon 1-28 twist for a variety of conical and saboted bullets. There are some 1-32 and I believe at least one company making a 1-26 or 1-24 twist pretty much for the same bullet types. I've been out of the fast twist thing since 2003 and going by memory.

Some people report good results shooting conicals through a round ball twist gun but if the gun is not scoped or shots taken at over 100 yards, they simply are not needed. All thats needed is a good accurate load worked up with roundball, stay within your comfort zone and place the ball where it needs to be.
 
I suppose you can, but do you really need to shoot conicals? If you're using a roundball barrel, why not just work up a load for roundball?

I understand we all have our preferences, but since you're asking about shooting conicals from a slow twist gun I assume you're thinking of using this gun for hunting. If that's the case, a roundball is very effective as a hunting projectile. A .50 caliber is more than enough for deer (I took a nice whitetail with a .40 rounbdball rifle this year), and a .54 is more than enough to handle any large game on the North American continent.

Plus, roundballs are a lot cheaper than conicals. And they're more traditional. :wink:

Good luck with it, whatever you decide, but I sure wouldn't be afraid to try roundball for hunting - and I also wouldn't be afraid to experiment with different conicals in my roundball barrel if I were so inclined (but I'm not).

:hatsoff:
Spot
 
utahhntnful said:
What twists work best for each?
Can I shoot Conical bullets through a barrel that is designed for a round ball? what will happen?

Hi Utah. There's so many factors involved that the best way to find out is to give it a try. Length of projectile, feet per second, grooves at the rear end behaving as fletching, hollow base increasing stability, long nose, blunt nose, style of rifling all play a role. Sometimes what shouldn't work does and vice versa.
Check out the posts by IdahoRon concerning some simply wonderful paper patched conical work.
 
what were the ROTs on the civil war era guns? I thought the 61 Springfield was a rather slow ROT something like 1 in 72.
 
I'm able to shoot a maxi-ball in my .45 round ball barrel. Pretty good group. I was surprised it worked.
 
The Caliber on the Civil war "rifle" was nominally .58, so a ROT of 1:72 would be close to optimum. .58 x 120 = 69.6".

The Greenhill formula is T=150 x D/R, where T is the Rate of Twist( ROT), D is the diameter of your bullet, and R is the length of the bullet divided by the diameter. Assuming the length of the Minie ball is about .70", a 1:72 ROT would be optimum.

I hope this helps. I do not know the actual ROT for those Springfield rifles. I suspect that information may be in the back of a Dixie Gun Works Catalog, but my copy is not near my computer. :wink: :hatsoff:
 
what were the ROTs on the civil war era guns? I thought the 61 Springfield was a rather slow ROT something like 1 in 72.

As the caliber gets larger, the twist rate that will stabilize a conical tends to get slower. .38 caliber slug guns shooting fairly heavy bullets need a twist in the 1:12 to 1:14 range.

The bullets used in the CW guns were also hollow based with a weight forward aspect that tended to help stabilize the bullet.

The twist rate required in any rifle barrel is very much dependent upon the length of the bullet. The longer the bullet the faster the twist needed.
 
utahhntnful said:
What twists work best for each?
Can I shoot Conical bullets through a barrel that is designed for a round ball? what will happen?

The short answer is, yes you can! BUT not in my rifle! Each rifle is different, here's my story:

I found a Navy Arms Ithaca .50 cal Hawken on a shelf in a store for $99.00 in mint condition. It was missing a ramrod and the instruction book. At that time I didn't know how to measure the twist rate myself. I took it to the range for some experimentation with different loads, patches, projectiles, etc., for a full work-up. Tried my usual 370 grain T/C Maxi-Balls and the only thing I could hit with them was the berm--I completely missed the almost 3 foot wide target frame! SEVERAL TIMES! I aimed in the center and each of the four corners figuring that maybe I would see some result, but NOTHING AT ALL! Turns out that I later found out from folks here on the forum that she has a 1 in 60 rate of twist!

I settled on a .490 ball, pre-lubed .018 pillow-ticking patch, 70 grains of 3Fg Goex and a .50 caliber wonder-wad. Shoots almost one ragged hole at 50 yards off the bench. Took two boxes of balls to get the rifle to settle-down. Previous to that some of my patches were tearing due to a rough spot in the bore.

Conicals need a "tweener" twist of at least 1 in 48, as the Trade Rifle I have can cut playing cards in half. If you get a barrel or gun that can use them (conicals) just make sure to clean the bore with a good lead solvent like shooter's choice to clean-out the lead build-up from the conicals :wink: .

Hope that this helps.

Dave
 
1:60 And slower - Round balls only Or very SHORT conical projectiles. My traditions kentucky does pretty good out to 50 yards with the 295gr powerbelt but anything farther, forget it! Maybe the 223gr powerbelt would help.

1:48 - Round ball/ conical twist
1:32 - round ball/ conical / sabot twist
1:28 - conical/sabot twist
 
ian45662 said:
what were the ROTs on the civil war era guns? I thought the 61 Springfield was a rather slow ROT something like 1 in 72.

The Ordnance Dept. experimented with several rates of twist for the new rifled musket as well the altered smoothbore muskets and found that 1 in 72" worked the best for the .58 cal barrel adopted. It remained that way through the M1863 Type 2 made by Springfield and all the contractors. I have a custom Richmond rifle-musket with a 6 groove match barrel in 1 in 48" that shoots pretty good with the service charge, but works better at 100 yds and under with a much reduced load 35 grs. fffg or 40 grs. ffg.
 
I shoot a TC Hawken .50. I shoot Maxi-balls.
I ran the numbers, you tell me if this is correct.
The maxi-ball is .83 long and .50 wide.
45.18 = 150 x (.5 /(.83/.5))
This tells me my 1:48 twist should be just about
right for shooting the maxi-ball. The 370grain
is what I use. I have gotten 4in or less groups at 50 yards at the range. The height of the shot seems to be dead on, the variance is left or right of dead center. 100 gr of 777 hits at about the level of the bullseye, 90 gr is an inch down, 80 gr is 2 inches down..and so on.
 
What about these?
BUFFALO BULLET BALL

I have heard that these do pretty well in a round ball set up?
 
How's the recoil shooting those big slugs with all that powder???? And why are you using 777? It burns hotter, and gives more velocity, which converts nicely into more pressure in the back of your barrel. Are you trying to see how far your nipple will fly over your head??? I highly recommend that you switch to using FFg Goex, or some other brand, to reduce the recoil.

When guys tell me they are getting 4 inch groups with these slugs at 50 yds, off a rest!, I have to wonder how they shoot a PRB at the same distance. If you can't hold a gun with open sights to shoot a group off a rest SMALLER than 4 inches, you have some major problems to diagnose. Half that size is more reasonable.

One of the reasons we recommend shooting PRBs is because we know that most of the people here do NOT have a range out their back door, and don't practice shooting daily. Like most of us, we tend to get out to a club, or range once a month during the good weather- and almost never when the weather is bad. Some here have admitted to putting their guns away for the winter.

To combat this kind of thinking, I sponsored a New Year's Day BULL SHOOT at my gun club, many years ago. It cost only A DOLLAR to enter, the the event involved shooting 3 shots for record. People were encouraged to use whatever they were comfortable shooting, but the 3 shots were fired off- hand at a large Bullseye at 50 yds. That was about as long as we could ask shooters to stand at the loading bench and firing line before coming into the target shack to warm up around the stove. The Club Split the money with the winner. We all had a good time. Most of the members began to show up just to find out how to get that smokepole to shoot in those freezing temperatures. The 5th year after i began the contest, we had more shooters at my shoot, than at any other monthly shoot sponsored by the club. At the Annual Meeting we talked to the members candidly about that fact, and asked questions of members about why they would show up for a shoot on NYD, but not attend shoots when the weather was a bit nicer. We learned a lot about how people think, but didn't find a clear direction to change our shooting programs. We heard a lot of reasons given about why people didn't attend shoots.

The much lighter PRBs recoil less, allowing shooters to shoot them accurately, even if their practice time is limited. A 2 inch, 5-group with a .50 cal. RB is not unusual at 50 yds. off a rest. And you can reduce that load to 70-80 grains of FFg and get fine accuracy. Front sights are sold taller than necessary. You are suppose to file the sight down to zero your load, based on how you hold those open sights. Spending time increasing powder to raise a POI up to where the sights aim just is a waste of powder, and contributes little accuracy, IMHO. Its your money, however. :hmm:
 
All your points are well taken. I am somewhat new to the game but willing to learn. The recoil with a maxiball(370gr) and 100gr of 777 is brutal. 70gr of 777 and a roundball is so much more pleasant. I will try the goex FFg.Thanks for the info.
 
Here is my experience on 777. I was in the middle of working up loads for my Paper patched conicals. A friend gave me some 777 that was the same as pistol powder. I backed it off per factory orders and shot the test. If I cleaned after every shot it worked ok. I was using between 70 and 75 gr. Problem was when I went to shoot a second or third shot without cleaning. I want my loads to shoot the same for at least the first three shots without cleaning. After the first shot the second was tough to seat. The last inch or so was very fouled. The third shot was even harder to seat and I stripped the paper patch off the bullet. Accuracy for the three shot group was in the crapper.
A friend of mine shoots a White mountain carbine. His barrel is like 20" or something like that. He shot a 410 gr hornady at 1100 of so FPS. He wanted 1500 FPS. He increased the powder to 105 gr and got 1500 FPS. He also got a broken stock.

Real black powder can be tough to get. It is imposable to buy over the counter anywhere in Idaho as far as I know. The only way to get it here is to order a bunch and sit on it for ever, or split it with another couple of guys. My favorite powder right now is Pyrodex P. I use it in all my rifles and I am getting fantastic results. I can buy it over the counter so it stays fresh. Ron
 
Idaho Ron said:
Here is my experience on 777. I was in the middle of working up loads for my Paper patched conicals. A friend gave me some 777 that was the same as pistol powder. I backed it off per factory orders and shot the test. If I cleaned after every shot it worked ok. I was using between 70 and 75 gr. Problem was when I went to shoot a second or third shot without cleaning. I want my loads to shoot the same for at least the first three shots without cleaning. After the first shot the second was tough to seat. The last inch or so was very fouled. The third shot was even harder to seat and I stripped the paper patch off the bullet. Accuracy for the three shot group was in the crapper.
A friend of mine shoots a White mountain carbine. His barrel is like 20" or something like that. He shot a 410 gr hornady at 1100 of so FPS. He wanted 1500 FPS. He increased the powder to 105 gr and got 1500 FPS. He also got a broken stock.

Real black powder can be tough to get. It is imposable to buy over the counter anywhere in Idaho as far as I know. The only way to get it here is to order a bunch and sit on it for ever, or split it with another couple of guys. My favorite powder right now is Pyrodex P. I use it in all my rifles and I am getting fantastic results. I can buy it over the counter so it stays fresh. Ron


I have to ask, it probably depends on the conical used but. I found when I paper patched and only used 2F for charges, that I could basically shoot into the same hole with the first shot which was paper patched, then all other bullets could be loaded with no patch once the barrel was fouled. This was in a .508 bore.
 
I found this discussion really illuminating. Kinda puts a stick in the eye of the "what's traditional" discussions.

It also explains a lot to me about the use of "picket" bullets in the transition of muzzleloader shooting after the fur trade and before cartridge guns caught on.
 
Swampy said:
Idaho Ron said:
Here is my experience on 777. I was in the middle of working up loads for my Paper patched conicals. A friend gave me some 777 that was the same as pistol powder. I backed it off per factory orders and shot the test. If I cleaned after every shot it worked ok. I was using between 70 and 75 gr. Problem was when I went to shoot a second or third shot without cleaning. I want my loads to shoot the same for at least the first three shots without cleaning. After the first shot the second was tough to seat. The last inch or so was very fouled. The third shot was even harder to seat and I stripped the paper patch off the bullet. Accuracy for the three shot group was in the crapper.
A friend of mine shoots a White mountain carbine. His barrel is like 20" or something like that. He shot a 410 gr hornady at 1100 of so FPS. He wanted 1500 FPS. He increased the powder to 105 gr and got 1500 FPS. He also got a broken stock.

Real black powder can be tough to get. It is imposable to buy over the counter anywhere in Idaho as far as I know. The only way to get it here is to order a bunch and sit on it for ever, or split it with another couple of guys. My favorite powder right now is Pyrodex P. I use it in all my rifles and I am getting fantastic results. I can buy it over the counter so it stays fresh. Ron


I have to ask, it probably depends on the conical used but. I found when I paper patched and only used 2F for charges, that I could basically shoot into the same hole with the first shot which was paper patched, then all other bullets could be loaded with no patch once the barrel was fouled. This was in a .508 bore.

What was your question?
When I am shooting paper patched bullets with Pyrodex P I don't have to clean between shoots as far as normal hunting conditions go for big game. If I am shooting rabbits and I am getting into some good shooting I will need to clean to keep them on target. Ron
 
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