58 calibre moulds

Greetings,Salutations,Ect.,Ect.,Ad Infinitum.I am in the market for a mould to homecast a .580 calibre minie ball for my Enfield.I have had no luck w/ Lyman,Rapine or Lee. I have a .575 mould and a .577,neither of which cast the proper size for this particular rifled musket.Any advice would be appreciated.

Jack
I had the same problem with my 61 Springfield. I found an old .580 cal Lyman mould on Gunbroker last year, started casting, and the mini's shot great for me. It took me six moulds to find one that worked in my rifle.So keep pluging away until you find one that works.

Jack: I'm sitting hear trying to remember which Rapine mould I was using. My Parker Hale Enfield seems to like as cast bullets using 55 grs. 3f. The mould is one I borrowed and is 575210 I think anyway it is a 510 gr minie lube is a mixture of beeswax & Bore Butter. Lube by dipping bullet into hot lube and setting on wax paper to harden. Only dip bullet up to grooves no need to put lube in cavite. I can shoot NSSA matches without cleaning and loading is easy. In my rifle this load is air tite and will kick the ramrod back out if you don't allow it to vent. Hope this helps. Don't give up there is a mould out there somewhere that will work.
Fox :thumbsup:

Greetings,Salutations,Ect.,Ect.,Ad Infinitum.I am in the market for a mould to homecast a .580 calibre minie ball for my Enfield.I have had no luck w/ Lyman,Rapine or Lee. I have a .575 mould and a .577,neither of which cast the proper size for this particular rifled musket.Any advice would be appreciated.

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Jack, This problem is not uncommon with the .58 CW rifles. I have a 1861 Colt and I went down that same road you are on right[url] now....made[/url] the complete circle in molds, and ended up right back with the el cheapo Lee Mold, but this time in .578.
I do most of my informal shooting with that rifle using that mold.
The Lyman 575213PH at 565gr.is also okay, but it takes a very hefty, uncomfortable, charge to open that base well enough for a good seal...Fine for hunting, but not for practice.

I have a Rapine 575315, and recently acquire another Rapine, the 580315 which I have not had a chance to try yet. Minies drop from that mold, using pure lead, at 320gr. but if I can get 'em down the barrel, they just might do the trick....I certainly hope so, as I am about ready to trade this thing off.


Russ

If you don't think it's too non-PC the LEE 440 grain REAL, which weighs 456 grains from my mould, is a nice and tight bullet for the .58".

The base, or first driving band/ridge on my REALs, going from the base to the nose, measure .5745", the second measures .5785", the third .585", and the fourth .5875".

In my ArmiSport 1861, it reqires a short starter to start the slug, just like a patched ball, but then the slug is engraved, and it rams down normally. The first band can be thumb-pressed into the barrel, so it's in there nice and straight when/before you short-start it. I don't mind short starting balls in my RB guns, so I don't mind doing it in the '61, especially since, once again, once it is started it rams down normally. For sure I am not into pounding any kind of bullet or ball ALL the way down a barrel.

I lightly lube it with Wonder Lube 1000+, and put a wonder wad underneath it, and it shoots very well. I have not fully sighted the rifle in yet, and shot for best group, as I am planning to switch from 777 to Swiss ffg before I do that. But again I can tell that it will shoot very well, and can tell already that it is not load sensitive...with no skirt to blow out, or not expand enough.

Russ sounds like that 580/315 should do the trick...should not be so much bearing surface that it will be hard to ram down. I bet it will shoot great.

Rat

- if .575 and .577 aren't the correct size, is .580" correct, as you indicated?
: If you cast a WW bullet in the .577 mould, then drill and a 1/4" hole in the middle, run in a machine screw, then block it on both the inside and outside of the minnie with nuts- tightly, but without expanding the minnie. Roll the minnie in 320 grit lightly, then chuck the minnie's screw in a drill press, the mould in the drill press-vise, and lapp the mould out by clamping it gently over the 'lapp' you've made. You may have to make a few of these, as the mould grinds "out". periodically cast minnies to check for size change, and fit to your barrel.
: You may also be able to merely hold the mould in the handles, clamping it around the lapp being spun in the drill press.

Hi everyone, thanks for all the posts. I have two rifled muskets actually. They are both manufactured by Armisport,one is an 1853 enfield the second is an 1861 Springfield. I contacted Armisport and they insist the barrels are bored .577. Well,I cannot hit the 100 yard target w/ any consistancy.The bullets are striking point on and are made from pure lead.I am hesitant to debreech the barrel myself and am too frugal to pay $40.00 per hour and wait 6 months to get them back from the gunsmith. I have been using progressively larger diameter bullets trying to find what each gun likes.While I have no problem w/using a short starter I do like the idea of "quick" reload ability of the minie ball.I want to hunt w/ these guns.

I hunt with my 1861...using a paper cartridge, it can be loaded pretty fast/very fast using the short-starter. Consider that you'll never be able to load it fast enough to take a second shot at an animal you missed the first time anyhow...with any ML the only second shot you'll get is finishing off a wounded animal, and if you do wound a deer or elk or something, you sure don't want to chase after it...as you know! At any rate, I would guesstimate that using a short starter would require about one additional second at most.

Seems like Daryl's advice on lapping out a mould would be the only way to get a minnie with the perfect fit, where it would thumb-press into the bore, but still be tight enough for good accuracy.

What size do you suspect your bore is? On my ArmiSport the bore seems pretty tight, the big 600 grain minnie I have will thumb press into the barrel of my Zouave...but it too needs the short starter to get it into the '61 barrel. And again, once started it goes right down.

Also: are you sure it's the bullet? Have you exhausted all other possibilties such as type of lube, how much lube, (I've had groups tighten up with some minnies, by shooting them without lube, or just lube in the last or bottome lube groove) different types of powder, and tried a variety of powder charges with each combination, etc.?? Have you made sure the bedding is good? You don't have yer tang-bolt torqued down hard...do you?

Check out "Bedding the Enfield" on that long-range ML site.

In my rifle, tight fitting slugs work good/shoot good. The REAL shoots best. I have one mould for an "improved" traditional minnie, which is quite undersized, and will slide down the clean barrel by it's self...like a little elevator. It shoots poorly.

Rat

Jack,
With all due respect:
1 - Are you sure the lead is pure? The only way I can tell is if it is stamped 99.97%. (Pressing into the lead with your thumb-nail can at least tell you if it is soft or hard).
2 - The rifling may be non existent or leaded; check with a bore light and/or try a lead removing cleaner.
3 - If you purchased both rifles as used, you have no idea as to how many shots they have fired; the barrels may be worn, although a visual inspection may not reveal any problems.
Jim.

Hi guys!I have been a reenactor in the past and these guns were the ones I used.Initially I asked myself a series of questions.#1: Could these barrels be warped due to " rapid fire" w/ blank cartridges during reenacting? According to some chums of mine @ the N-ssa, not likely, especially since I have fired no more than 500 blanks between the two of them.#2:Is the lead soft enough.I am using lead from roof flashing and 12 volt car batteries. I neutralize the acid w/ a sodium bicarbonate bath then retrieve the lead from the old batteries. I will however be purchasing pure lead from Alchemy Casting in the future . I am buying a lead hardness tester soon and will use the readings from the pure lead to give me an idea what to be looking for when I test the lead flashing/ battery lead .I have cast minies from a .575 "old style" Lyman mould and while they strike point on the grouping is pathetic.They act as if they are excessively undersized.I feel confident the lead hardness issue is not resolved but at an acceptable hardness.I have considered coke build up at the breech,glass bedding issues,but I keep coming back to the conviction that these guns may not be consistantly bored at the factory and there seems to be a WIDE range in I.D. .Rat,I thought about your suggestion alot last night concerning the R.E.A.L. bullet from Lee.My knee jerk reaction was this was not a P.C. minie, but having slept on it that is a rediculous attitude. I will still try to find a traditional minie, although I really like daryl's suggestion.However, "Beauty is in function" and I nearly fell over when I found a R.E.A.L. mould @ Track of the Wolf for $ 13.75 for a single cavity mould. How can I refuse that! Your point on "rapid reload" is well taken.And you use paper cartridges? That's all good for me.I suspect the bore is approxamately .580-.581 I.D. .No, I have not exhausted all the other possibilites.I firmly believe I cannot manage what I cannot measure so I have been taking notes religiously and concentrating on one element of the load chain at a time.I have kept the powder brand, powder charge,granulation,lube,lead hardness consistant only changing the bullet diameter.Once I find a bullet that consistantly performs or at the very least allows me to determine the relative bore diameter I will move to the next element.Tell me Rat, what sort of groupings do you get w/ this REAL bullet at 50 and 100 yards?You say you have hunted w/ this round, were you using the 60 grain 2f service load? Have you taken a deer or hog w/ this bullet? What sort of penetration are we looking at? I apologize for the barage of questions,I really think you are on to something here!Lehigh County,I bought both of these through Cabelas new.The rifling appears to be in fine condition as does the bore.I've been dorking w/ these rifled muskets for about two years on and off and constantly these 3 months past. The historical pull they exert is magnetic, however only accurate guns are fun.I am starting to think about selling them both for a new Armisport 1842 Springfield smoothbore if they never work out.I want a historical gun to hunt with.I have a Pedersoli brown bess and so far w/in 50 yards it outshoots both of these guns!I will be ordering that REAL mould!Sorry for such a long post! UGH! No spellcheck!Best Regards Gentlemen.

[quotes]1: I have fired no more than 500 blanks between the two of them.
2: lead from roof flashing and 12 volt car batteries.
3: I am buying a lead hardness tester soon.
4: The bullets are striking point on.
Jack, I am reluctant to reply / advise any further as there has been much feed back already, and this could lead to info overload, however, in answer to the above:
4: If the bullets are striking point on, that would indicate that your lead is OK; minies made from hard lead tend to go through on an angle or even sideways especially at longer distances!
3: The little I've been told from friends who have lead hardness testers is that they are NOT accurate; save your money for the time being!
2: lead from roof flashing and 12 volt car batteries is NOT pure lead.
1: 500 blanks fired between both rifles!!!!, and both rifles were new purchases!!!; definite alarm bells sounding! This would indicate that your barrels have NOT been "BROKEN-IN".

I can write a lengthy post from my personal experience which proves that barrels must be broken-in, however, go to the following for more info:

http://badgerbarrelsinc.com/barrel%20specifics.htm?72,9

Jim.

Hi Jim,I bought the Enfield in 1993 and the Springfield in 1995.I have fired about 300 blanks through the Enfield and around 200 blanks through the Springfield. Two years ago I began a quest to accurately live fire these guns.I have fired maybe 300 rounds between the two (2/3 enfield,1/3 Springfield)I have never heard of breaking in a barrel.Could this be the culprit or an element of the accuracy equation,I wonder?I ordered the R.E.A.L. mould today. If this is a relatively tight bullet I should get accuracy. If I do not,having used good lead,it could be the barrel has taken a set from improper breaking in.Gad, what to do then? Can one buy ,say a drop in green mountain barrel for a rifled musket?

I'm getting around a 6" group at 100 yards. My barrel is brand new also. I was using 90 grains of 777, but plan to switch to 100 grains of ffg Swiss, and expect to get a 3" group at 100 yards after juggling the powder charge a bit, and tying a couple different lubes, and shooting the gun more.

On the powder charge, no, definately not using the 60 grain service charge, for hunting I believe 100 grains of black to be more appropriate to the caliber, rifle, and barrel length. To my mind, using the 60 grain service load in a .58 would be kind of like using 30 grains in a .50"...even though the .58" will still kill well with light charges and a slug. But the reason for the service charge had nothing to do with hunting.

Have not shot anything with the REAL...had a chance to shoot a spike buck, but decided to let him go and maybe be a bigger buck next year. Had he been a doe I would have taken him/it/her. But I was impressed that he made it through all the seasons, and was still kicking during late muzzle-loader.

However...looking at the design of the REAL, the length, and the weight, (a little on the light side for good velocity...with healthy powder charge) sectional density, shape (sharp-shouldered) etc., I dont' think there would be any suprises...it should be a very good killer. It should kill like a large caliber pistol bullet on steroids, and I have shot a lot of deer with cast bullets in the .44 Magnum. In other words it should have a lot of shocking or "whompability" much like a roundball, along with very good penetration. This is speculation, but again I know how that general type of bullet performs.

That's funny, I have a Pedersoli Bess too. It's good out to 70 yards max, very accurate...I have rifle (old timey, Long Rife type) sights on it. But I certainly hope we get your rifles to outshoot old Bess beyond 50 yards!!

:hmm:

Paper cartridges...work great. Gives you that extra time to whack the short-starter!

:yakyak:

The long post-ugh is good. It's really valuable when you can get a bunch of people's minds together to brainstorm and solve a problem. Many people post, but just give short little snippits of information...which makes it hard to help...very frustrating.

If you are currently using one of the substitute powders, I would suggest switching to a real Black Powder, then switching back after you get the rifle shooting right. I know that would be changing more than one variable, but it's a pretty safe assumption that if the gun is going to shoot at all, it will do it with Goex or Swiss ffg.

Ok, if the REAL won't shoot I'll be suprised. Use enough powder. Put a wonder wad under it. Don't be afraid to try a minimum of lube on it, if it still don't shoot. Roof flashing is very soft, at least 80% of the lead that I cast round balls and REALs, and minnies came from roof flashing. Never tried battery plates.

Good luck and keep us informed.

rat

Will just add that as long as the barrel was properly cleaned, I can't imagine any harm done from not breaking in, or the blanks. No...I'm sure your barrel has taken no "set". !!

A barrel will shoot "better" when broken in, sometimes much better, but it's not the difference between say a 3" group at 100 and a 15" group.

I think you will get it all sorted out without replacing the barrel. However, there is a place that you can send your barrel to, that will re-rifle it with progressive rifling for a reasonable price, and I'm sure that when they do that they will make sure there is nothing wrong with it also. But...let's not go there...yet! Let's see what the REAL does.

Rat

A barrel will shoot "better" when broken in, sometimes much better, but it's not the difference between say a 3" group at 100 and a 15" group.

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I should have elaborated; 1 - In my experience, a barrel not broken-in properly may shoot well with one particular load for a period of time, then for no apparent reason decide that it wants substantially more powder to achieve the previous results (assuming the load combination/components have not changed).
2 - Is it possible for a firearm to shoot poorly/erratically until the barrel has been broken in? I don't know, as all of my BP firearms (except TD) have shot well from the start apart from minor tweeking (more blind luck than anything else! :hmm.
I agree it is too early to look at buying a replacement, although I went through this process over the last 12 months with 3 of my firearms, namely DP 1861 Springfield, DP Tryon Creedmoor and DP Trapdoor rifle. The 1861 and Tryon (purchased new as well as T/door) were always good shooters, but both have been going off over the last 12 or so months. My main concern was "for how long do I persevere trying to get them back to the original accuracy", which lasted for several years from new). How many different minies, slugs, lubes, powders etc etc do I keep on trying? In the end I bit the bullet and decided the only thing left was new barrels or new firearms. New firearms won. The Trapdoor never shot well, and although I could have spent just a little more time with it, I am sure that the 3 grooves it has are not conducive for accurate shooting (the DP Long Range TD has 6 grooves). Nor do I make it a habit of replacing my firearms, but enough is enough!
Jim. :imo:

No matter how ya load it, it packs a punch! And when ya got good hunting bullets loaded to their maximum effectivness, you do have one mighty fine hunting load. Those big heavy minie's are simply hard to stop.



Guess I could have made that bullet mould a bit larger for for the picture..anyway, it's a Lyman 575213PH 565gr Parker Hale mould, and Minie that is fairly easy to push to about 1400fps.

Greetings Gentlemen!My apologies to all for the long post, I do tend to bang on, however I wished to give an accurate account,since often the solution is in a niggling detail.Rat, I have always thought the 60 grain service load to be anemic for hunting aswell. I have never seen anything on Min./Max. loads for either of these R.M. so I have stayed w/ the 60 grains. If I were to shoot a deer or hog out to 100 yards I certainly want a bit more poke than 60 grains!What would be the maximum load? I haven't any substitute powder at hand,I will buy a 1/2 case case of Goex 2f at a time which lasts me about a year or more. I was pricing Elephant brand and it appears interesting but I don't want to jug powders yet.Say Jim, it sounds like you have quite the arsenal!I have a substantial b.p. battery aswell. I bought them all when I was not married and had nothing better to do than buy a new gun...SIGH,the glory days gone!Am I to understand you have a Pedersoli 1861 Springfield? Where did you buy it? Russ, that'a an impeccable Colt! What weight/powder granulation do you use for hunting? Looking forward to hearing from you all,best regards,Jack .

"Russ, that'a an impeccable Colt! What weight/powder granulation do you use for hunting? Looking forward to hearing from you all,best regards,Jack"



Jack, Thank You........... Unfortunately, or fortunately...depending on how you look at it... that particular bullet needs a LOT of powder to open the heavy / thick base properly. Hunting loads with "that" particular bullet is 110gr to 120gr of FFg. The most accurate, and most pleasant Minie to shoot...at least for me...is the lowly Lee OS 480gr cast at.578. BTW OS stands for "over size" not "old style" as often thought.
With the Lee 480gr OS a good hunting load would be 90/95gr of Goex FFg. and that load is also fairly comfortable to practice with.

For the very best "accuracy" possible with that rifle it is 42gr FFFg (3F) and the Lee OS Minie.(based lubed only, with a very thin coat of crisco on the outside) That particular load chronographs from my rifle at 1090 fps and from the bench I can "stack 'em up" at 50 yds. and break stationary clay targets at 75yds.
Sometimes, if I flinch just right, or jerk hard enough on the trigger, I can do it off hand. :crackup:

My own feeling about this "target" load for hunting is about the same as that of using the original round ball load and 60gr of powder.... It is just a bit on the anemic side.

Like everything else "your own mileage may vary just a bit", but shooting one of these big boys, with full house loads, will give you a total new prespective of what they are capable of.

Russ

Say Jim, it sounds like you have quite the arsenal! Am I to understand you have a Pedersoli 1861 Springfield? Where did you buy it?

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I purchased a Pedersoli 1861 Springfield about 8 years ago. Even though Pedersoli was stamped on the barrel, Euroarms was as well which makes me believe Euroarms actually make the firearm (it's unlikely that both (Italian) manufacturers would make a slow selling item such as the 1861. I purchased it from the DP/Euroarms distributor in Oz. The firearm really shot well in its prime, and the stock was beautiful (I hope the new owner gives it as much love & attention that I did!).
My arsenal is reasoably large; I may start a new thread explaining why, and how I got in to BP shooting. None of this is helping with your problem though!
Jim. :redthumb:

:: Sorry, I forgot to include the DP link for the 1861 Springfield:

http://www.davide-pedersoli.com/dettaglio.aspx?Articolo=S.243&CategoriaId=243&lang=en

Jim.