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India Made Repros

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I have an India made Bess and I've been very pleased with the quality it is the only India made I own but can tell you it shoots very well
they do have some extra wood but that can be taken care of. As far as the 1 that "blew up" I'm still waiting to here the results..and that's a whole nother topic I suppose...
 
nkvd said:
Hello All

I am new to the ML scene,I am sure this topic has been bashed to pieces but will anyone admit to purchasing and using these and living to tell about it? I know a few Indian made Musket versions are offered that are not available by any other maker,the prices aren't exactly give away rates too.

:hmm: Regards,Rob


It is impossible to make a good, cheap, traditional ML gun.
They do not lend themselves to mass production or sloppy assembly.
But people insist on buying the cheapest thing they can find. Putting powder in it then, after placing it close to their head, they fire the powder.

Now I ask you when you buy a car do you buy the cheapest, sloppiest made car you can find with minimal or no safety features?? Would you by a early Corvair for example with the faulty rear suspension that would "steer" the car in a crosswind and send it off the road, usually in a roll over??

Would you buy an electrical appliance that was so poorly made it was not furnished with a plug at the end of the cord by the maker?
Would you fly in an airplane you KNEW was made of the cheapest possible materials with poor attention to detail?

When I hear of unproved muskets coming in, some reportedly without the vent being drilled by the maker I really have to ask why in the heck would anyone buy one and then load and fire it?

People who own these things get in a huff an tell us how safe they are sine they don't want it thought that they might have made a mistake.
Safe guns do not fail with blank charges. At least not when loaded as they are reportedly loaded at these "re-enactments". The pressure in a large bore musket with just powder and some paper wadding is very low. Add to this the softer "pulse" generated by flintlock ignition and it takes a very poor barrel to fail with a blank load with some paper on top. Paper shipping tubes will often stand 2-3 loadings with BP and a newspaper "ball".
Someone mentioned a Pedersoli being blown up. I don't know the details of this, but from posts I have read by people near the Indian musket failure I have a pretty good idea of what occurred in that case.
There have been junk MLs brought in for years. I am SURE that some like the ones with 2 piece barrels, were never intended by the maker to be fired. But some people did anyway.

My amazement is that people don't seem to understand the consequences if something DOES go wrong.
It is OFTEN a LIFE CHANGING event. The injured will likely never be the same even if they don't loose any body parts.
I have been shooting MLs since the mid-1960s. I have blown out a nipple and had a drum break off a barrel. I have seen failed barrels and I was shooting MLs and writing for a magazine when the early TC "Hawken" produced a rash of burst barrels.
I have been complaining about cheap ML guns for quite some time. I am constantly amazed more of these things don't fail and I mean guns that are "better" than the Indian imports.

Dan
 
Dan
don't many of the barells offered on the american custom guns come from china??
And also are they not also un proofed and un vented when bought?? But I suppose because if its assembeled by a American It is then magically better??


Why do folk focus on the ONE yes ONE no name indian gun, but only have a tiny blurb about the Piedersoli???



Folk call some of the indian guns sloppy, but In the Loyalist ones I have its just NOT the case.

I have owned and shot guns , many guns since I was a small child.

I never understood the mindset that has to spend more money for something of just as good or maybe worse then affordable quality piece, just to have a designer label, is so poshly eliteist.

Should I spend thousands and have a stranger assemble my gun so I can smugly look down my nose at people?

Or should I spend a couple hundred dollars and work on it myself and be far more happy with a no name?


I go on and on about Loyalist and I will continue to support them

My long land is a well built piece, far better all around the Italian and track of the wolf ones I have seen and handeled.

I wouldent sell mine,
and to follow the car analogy if my long land was a car it would be a 63 olds 98 with a perfectly tuned 398- 4 barell.

Cheers
Rob
 
and to follow the car analogy if my long land was a car it would be a 63 olds 98 with a perfectly tuned 398- 4 barell.
You forgot to add that the windshield has a 1" gap all the way around it, only one engine mount, the body is full of putty and has been painted with a broom, and the gears are ready to fall out of the rear end. :rotf:
I got to hand it to you man, you really stick up for those guns, but I think you need to get out and take a look at some real guns some time. :wink:
 
Uh, I am curious...what about Pedersoli barrels? I have owned several Peds and never seen a problem on barrels or finish. Is there a problem?
David
 
bessbattlesystem said:
Dan
don't many of the barells offered on the american custom guns come from china??

Uh, no.

And also are they not also un proofed and un vented when bought?? But I suppose because if its assembeled by a American It is then magically better??

Again, no. You are not even talking apples and oranges here. When a barrel is bought, it is threaded and often supplied with a breachplug, sometimes fitted, sometimes not. The gun builder can choose to fit a plug of his/her choice if desired but the barrel maker will generally do it if asked. Liability laws in the US are VERY tough and no one wants to do a vast project like this in a sloppy, half vast way. The vent is not drilled because it needs to be aligned with the lock when both are fitted in the custom stock - to drill before the lock is fitted is asking for headaches beyond measure.


Why do folk focus on the ONE yes ONE no name indian gun, but only have a tiny blurb about the Piedersoli???

It is my opinion that ALL Indian made guns are, as you call them, "no name" guns - we do not know who made them giving both the sellers and manufacturers plausible deniability. (Can't be ours, our name is not on it.) Not so with the Italian guns who proof their guns AND stamp the manufacturer's name on them.

Folk call some of the indian guns sloppy, but In the Loyalist ones I have its just NOT the case.

Of course you may well be correct, but the Loyalist products that I have seen were percussion and they were acceptable as blank firing replicas for reenacting but they were in no way as well fitted (sloppy inletting and ill-formed parts) as the competition, much less originals. That being said, you have a right to your opinion.

I have owned and shot guns , many guns since I was a small child.

Good for you, so Have I - a little over 50 years.

I never understood the mindset that has to spend more money for something of just as good or maybe worse then affordable quality piece, just to have a designer label, is so poshly eliteist.

No one is being "poshly elitist", we have asked questions of an experienced user of a possibly unsafe product and have been rebuffed. Convince us that they are safe by showing us breaching and that they are more than just "close enough" in appearance. Can we see pics of your finished product that you have improved, including details of inletting done by the maker or you? And, please, show us the pictures of the Pedersoli that "blew up in similar fashion as well as the details of how it happened.

Should I spend thousands and have a stranger assemble my gun so I can smugly look down my nose at people?


Why would you think anyone would want you to do that? A decent and polite individual will not "smugly look down" his nose to anyone because any reason, no one is saying that you should, you are a good person, no one doubts that.

Or should I spend a couple hundred dollars and work on it myself and be far more happy with a no name?


I go on and on about Loyalist and I will continue to support them

Your experience with them has been good, you should indeed be a loyal customer, anyone would think less of you if you did not treat them in that fashion. Stick with them until you have reason not to, its only proper behavior by an honorable man.

My long land is a well built piece, far better all around the Italian and track of the wolf ones I have seen and handeled.

I will disagree with you until I see a known and marked product from Italy or TOTW that is badly made by their people.

I wouldent sell mine,
and to follow the car analogy if my long land was a car it would be a 63 olds 98 with a perfectly tuned 398- 4 barell.

Cheers
Rob
 
I have been looking at the long land brown Bess for some time. I keep reading post like this and well they do nothing to sway me one way or the other. I do know if I could afford it and I can not I would not even build my own guns, but have them all custom made. For me it is all economics and what I can afford I would rather have a gun then not own any as long as it is safe. hmm may be that is why I have not added any custom made guns to my collection yet just can not afford to pay for them. By the time I can I wonder will I still be here to enjoy them? This whole thing reminds me of the Ford Chevy Dodge talk some will by the best some will never change no matter what and some will look at it with an open mind .I hope I am in the last group both in guns and autos.
 
I'm not sure where my "inexpensive" Lyman Trade Rifle's barrel (and stock) was made but I can shoot five shots into an area smaller than a squirrel's head at 50 yards, from standing. With the iron sites (no peep hole) it came with. All for $270 bucks. It is one of the most accurate and reliable guns I have ever fired. Period.

Some might say, but it is a really cheap gun, so it can't be any good.

I don't (think I) have a dog in this fight about guns from India (could my Lyman's be even partially India-made?) hahaha. But I do know that in this one world economy---stuff is coming from everywhere and while some stuff may wear labels saying it comes from a certain place it is often a lie. Also, good equipment can be shipped anyhwere to make a good gun. Finally, no country has a monopoly on quality workmanship.

Is it sage to assert just because something is from India it has to be junk? Probably not. And that old saw about you get what you pay for does not apply to my $270 cheapo Lyman tack driver. Actually I also own a 12 gauge Ultra Slugger that I bought for $100 (new they are not that much more) and put a $100 Nikon 3-9X scope on it and I can shoot almost ragged hole groups with this thing all day long at 125 yards and it shoots to 200 yards very accurately. Now, some guys pay thousands of dollars for that level of performance and perhaps they do that because they really do beleive you HAVE TO pay alot to get alot of performace. I guess I get additional enjoyment when I can get something that functions very well and I did not get ripped off or got taken by a label.
 
Well I guess nobody has any strong opinions on these guns huh? :shake:

OK they are cheap. They won't pass for originals. I have never seen a repro, custom or otherwise, that would pass for a original.

OK, teak was not the wood of choice of the Board of Ordinance... :rotf:

OK, custom guns don't look like they were inletted with a screwdriver... :blah:

But reenactment units don't issue free guns either. :yakyak:

So what people really want to know is, are these guns safe. As mentioned, 1 india gun, and 1 Pedersoli have burst.

So what about that burst India Bess?
It burst in the middle of the barrel. It was not along a seam: it split from the center towards both ends. The split went far enough that the breechplug was freed.

According to the guy who took the photo, the breechplug was threaded.

I have enhanced the image to help see the threads.

Breechplug.jpg


Most informed experts think there was an obstruction.

If you obstruct the barrel of a Pedersoli or a $2,500 custom gun, it will burst too.
:v
 
Pichou said:
Well I guess nobody has any strong opinions on these guns huh? :shake:

OK they are cheap. They won't pass for originals. I have never seen a repro, custom or otherwise, that would pass for a original.

OK, teak was not the wood of choice of the Board of Ordinance... :rotf:

OK, custom guns don't look like they were inletted with a screwdriver... :blah:

But reenactment units don't issue free guns either. :yakyak:

So what people really want to know is, are these guns safe. As mentioned, 1 india gun, and 1 Pedersoli have burst.

So what about that burst India Bess?
It burst in the middle of the barrel. It was not along a seam: it split from the center towards both ends. The split went far enough that the breechplug was freed.

According to the guy who took the photo, the breechplug was threaded.

I have enhanced the image to help see the threads.

Breechplug.jpg


Most informed experts think there was an obstruction.

If you obstruct the barrel of a Pedersoli or a $2,500 custom gun, it will burst too.
:v

Do you have details on the burst Pedersoli? Was it burst with a blank or a service charge? Unless burst with a blank its an apples and oranges thing. A lead bullet makes a very good bore obstruction.

Most people assume its an obstruction since it has proven to be very difficult to blow a properly made barrel of good materials short of an obstruction.
To prove anything this barrel will have to be sawed, polished and looked at under a microscope. Looking at it in photos or with the naked eye then making pronouncements is not going to give the true cause.

I would have to ask how it is possible to obstruct the barrel with a paper cartridge.
I would suggest that someone test to see if the typical paper cartridge will produce an obstruction that will burst a barrel after the number of shots it is thought was fired from the musket in question here.

I would further point out the the photos I saw looked like a seam had failed. Very clean edges in places. Homogenous steel does not usually split cleanly.
The thing everyone overlooks here is that had the barrel failed at the breech the shooter would likely have left in a body bag since it is likely the breech plug would have struck his head.

I keep trying to point out to all you "re-enactors" that one, just one serious injury or fatality from one of these pipe bombs and the "sport" is over. The lawyers will run rampant through the ML sports if they can find any assets to go after.

Dan
 
Sounds like the engine had to be rebuilt, too. It's been bored out--the original displacement was 394 cubic inches. :rotf:
 
I don't have a lot more info...

It happened during a reenactment. So blanks.

The cartridges were from a "pool" from unit members.

The split at first looked like a seam, but in fact is has an irregular spiral (slight) and I think offset through the touch hole.

The widest point (area of origin of the burst) was near the middle of the barrel length. This compared well with other known obstruction bursts.

This musket had been in use for (I think) a little over a year.

Conjecture: the shooter had been in another "battle" earlier in the day. He may have staged a "death" and got some dirt/turf in the bore. Loading on top of this could have caused the charge to sit part way down the bore, with enough getting to the breech to cause ignition of the powder at the obstruction.

P.S. the Pedersoli that burst was several years ago. That's all I know on that one.
 
bessbattlesystem said:
Dan
don't many of the barells offered on the american custom guns come from china??
And also are they not also un proofed and un vented when bought?? But I suppose because if its assembeled by a American It is then magically better??


Why do folk focus on the ONE yes ONE no name indian gun, but only have a tiny blurb about the Piedersoli???



Folk call some of the indian guns sloppy, but In the Loyalist ones I have its just NOT the case.

I have owned and shot guns , many guns since I was a small child.

I never understood the mindset that has to spend more money for something of just as good or maybe worse then affordable quality piece, just to have a designer label, is so poshly eliteist.

Should I spend thousands and have a stranger assemble my gun so I can smugly look down my nose at people?

Or should I spend a couple hundred dollars and work on it myself and be far more happy with a no name?


I go on and on about Loyalist and I will continue to support them

My long land is a well built piece, far better all around the Italian and track of the wolf ones I have seen and handeled.

I wouldent sell mine,
and to follow the car analogy if my long land was a car it would be a 63 olds 98 with a perfectly tuned 398- 4 barell.

Cheers
Rob


Ignorance is bliss I guess.
You are assuming the Indian made guns are properly assembled from properly made parts when you compare them to guns made by a gunsmith who uses quality parts, knows how to and cares to carefully fit breechplugs and other critical assemblies.
Any fool can screw in a breech plug or drill a vent.
Doing these things in a manner that produces a product with long term reliability and safety requires more knowledge.
I would point out that the breeching of the barrel is not in question though I am sure its sloppily done as well.

I question the method of manufacture and the materials the barrel was made of.
If the barrels are not properly made of the proper material it is IMPOSSIBLE to make them safe. Proving such a barrel with a heavy load proves nothing and might actually increase the chance of failure at a later date with a service charge.
Remington lost a lawsuit about 15 years ago over using 1140M steel in shotgun barrels. 1140M is apply strong (probably 300-400% on paper) and will pass proof. But it work hardens. Shotgun barrels flex when fired. Once the steel had been flexed enough to become sufficiently brittle it BROKE. People were hurt. Remington was sued. They use better steel now.
The pictures of the Indian made barrel I saw indicated no stretch. Good barrels will stretch before they break with BP. If there is no bulge something is wrong. This barrel *APPEARS* to have had a weak section or seam that failed without significantly bulging FIRST. I don't have the photos handy. *Assuming* this was the case it means the barrel was likely made from "seamless" tubing. Seamless tubing is not recommended for gun barrels. The effect of gun powder, either smokeless or BP, is far different than the stress applied by water, steam or hydraulics. Generally there is no shock loading of the part. Shock loading greatly reduces the barrels ability to withstand pressure and can produce failure at pressures far lower than would be the case if the pressure were applied at a even slightly slower rate.
This, and the fact that peoples heads are within inches of the point of maximum pressure, dictate that barrels be carefully made of suitable material.
DOM and even welded tubing/pipe is suitable for hydraulics and other pressure applications.
Barrel steel for low pressure applications need not be anything special. Low carbon will work for cartridges like non-magnum handguns etc. HOWEVER, the steel must be carefully made at the mill, it must have a low occurrence of inclusions and other flaws, it must be of a uniform hardness, no hard spots
and the barrel must be carefully made the breech carefully installed and it should proved.
HOWEVER...
Proving is only valid to find IMPERFECTIONS. It cannot "prove" a barrel made from unsuitable materials is safe. Look up the Remington 1140M. These barrels all went through Remingtons manufacturing process and still failed in service anyway. There have been a rash of 416 stainless barrel failures in modern firearms recently indicating that perhaps this material is not as suitable as had been thought.
I suspect that had the Indian musket been proved properly it might well have failed in proof. But this is not a sure thing since the barrel was almost certainly made from tubing. It actually takes very little to contain BP pressures in the context of this discussion, shooting blanks that were not heavily compacted. So a failure shooting blanks should be a red flag. It means the barrel was very weak.

Gun barrel failure is a SERIOUS event. It almost always maims or kills someone. Failures are thankfully rare. Bu
But I cringe at people who simply assume that because someone makes a gun that it is somehow "safe".
Good work is expensive. The workman has a right to make a decent return on his labor. But many people who buy ML want it built by someone making minimum wage. Since this is still too much they buy something from some 3rd world country that likely pays less than a dollar an hour.

Then the fool thinks he has a good gun since it makes sparks and goes bang if he loads it right or he can hit a target with it. He has no knowledge other than that he bought something. It becomes an extension of his personality since he bought it and thus cannot be junk. If he took it apart he would not know what he was looking at though he could probably name the parts. Not only does the owner of this prize not understand the potential dangers of such things he attacks anyone who attempts to inform him.
He construes an attempt to increase his knowledge and make him, his family and others around him safer as a personal attack.
He shoots the messenger...

Dan
 
Pichou said:
I don't have a lot more info...

It happened during a reenactment. So blanks.

The cartridges were from a "pool" from unit members.

The split at first looked like a seam, but in fact is has an irregular spiral (slight) and I think offset through the touch hole.

The widest point (area of origin of the burst) was near the middle of the barrel length. This compared well with other known obstruction bursts.

This musket had been in use for (I think) a little over a year.

Conjecture: the shooter had been in another "battle" earlier in the day. He may have staged a "death" and got some dirt/turf in the bore. Loading on top of this could have caused the charge to sit part way down the bore, with enough getting to the breech to cause ignition of the powder at the obstruction.

P.S. the Pedersoli that burst was several years ago. That's all I know on that one.



Looks like someone REALLY wants this to be a bore obstruction.

If I lived in the east where these "events" occur wild horses could not drag me within 1/2 mile of one.

So the burst Pedersoli is rumor.
Dan
 
I have lots of friends that shoot and like the Indian made muskets. I would buy one for reenacting. If I wanted to live fire it, I choose something else. The Italian Bess' that I've owned were all great guns IMO. I've had 4 of them I think.

The problem with the Italian muskets is that they tend to be copies of guns that saw little use here in the 18th c. I really like the correct markings that the Indian made muskets have. I also like the guns the Indian companies decided to copy.

Every gun that I've ever examined that blew up because of an obstructed bore, blew up where the bore was obstructed. Just my 2 cents....
 
Thanks Dan for that info.

re: obstruction, I don't know one from a hole in the ground. :surrender:

But people who do and have seen the photos mostly believe it was an obstruction.

Something that may have been discussed before, but I have not seen here is wood failure on the India guns. I have heard about several stocks cracking or breaking. Some during use.

Of course I have seen a custom gun made by a American maker that had grain almost perpendicular to the barrel. Not tiger stripes, grain. That should be a :nono: :shake: :nono: in India AND America.
 
The Pedersoli is not rumor. It happened in 1996 at Gunston Hall. I have read about it, but there aren't many details. It broke at the wrist. There is at least one picture of it on another list.

Don R
 
"Of course I have seen a custom gun made by a American maker that had grain almost perpendicular to the barrel."

I saw an expensive one like that for sale on a website yesterday. I would be afraid to shoot it.
 
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