percussion

I have a black powder rifle that uses the 209 primer and just aquired a hawkens percussion ,It has no info with it and the origional owner is no longer with us. Can i use the same sabot that i use with my traditions? (both 50 cal). Can i use the powder pellets? what is the second trigger for? Please help me out. I would like to use it this season but am unsure as to how.

I'm by no means an expert, and without knowing more about the rifle I can't tell you much except for some very baisic speculation.

The two triggers is a double set trigger. Pulling the first trigger will touch off your charge as normal. If you are at the range, you can pull that second trigger back to set the first trigger, which will lighten the trigger pull up considerably and take all the travel out of it. It's a nice feature.

As for using sabot rounds, I'd say doubtful, but not out of the realm of possibility depending on what the twist rate on the barrel is. You will probably get your best results with a patched round ball or a conical like a TC Maxi-Hunter depending on your twist rate.

I'd say that using the pyrodex pellets is right out, unless you want to toss some granulated powder down there to get it started. The #11 caps just don't have the power to touch off those pyrodex pellets reliably, apparantly. I've never tried them myself.

Unless you live somewhere where you can buy the real stuff like Goex, your best bet would be to use the triple seven, simply because of availability and the fact that time is a factor with the season creeping up on you fast.

If you can find out more about the rifle, I'm sure other people on here can tell you a whole lot more about it than I ever could.

I know a guy that has a Lyman Trade gun with 1 in 48 twist and shoots powerbelts very well :thumbsup: :thumbsup: :thumbsup:

First off, welcome to the forum and the world of traditional muzzleloading.

I can say that pellet powder will not work properly in a sidelock ignition. You will need granulated powder.

Sabot bullets may work well but you would most likely get better accuracy from lead conical bullets like Maxi-Balls, Maxi-Hunters, or REAL(Rifling Engraved At Loading). Don't forget the good old patched roundball!

You didn't say what brand your Hawken is but you can use the Thompson Center manual for a wealth of information that will apply to about any sidelock muzzleloader.

Go here-
T/C Manuals

And look down the list for this-
Shooting TC Side Lock Black Powder Guns

Best of luck.

:hatsoff:

HD

Welcome to the MLF :hatsoff: if you plan to use those pellets you likely will have to use some regular powder (3F) under to set them off. around 20 grs. may do - I've never tryed them but seen posts here of some that did use them. worth a try I suppose but the tradionalists will likely call you a 'blasphemer' and call down a murrain on your herds.
sabots should do OK, they shoot good in my 1-48 .50 cal but I haven't shot them since I began use REAL slugs.

Welcome to the Forum. You've found the best Traditional black powder forum on the net!

The other folks have given you some good information.
If you can't find real Black powder in your area, you might also try Pytodex or any of the other granulated black powder substitutes.

If you do use the substitutes you will probably have your best luck if you use the #11 Magnum Caps.
They have a hotter flame which is useful for igniting these powders.
If you can find real black powder for your gun, the regular #11 caps should work fine.

When you ram the projectile down the bore on top of the powder, make sure the hammer is at half cock and that there is not a cap or a part of the previously fired cap on the nipple.

I too am fairly new to this. I just got a .50 T/C Hawken with a 1/48 twist. I have found the following;
It shoots Powerbelt bullets more accurately than I can hold using iron sights, out to 60 yards. I load 80 grains of Pyrodex RX.
In order to insure that Pyrodex will fire, I changed to a musket cap nipple, and use those instead of #11. I will never use CCI caps again, as I have had too many instances where the cap did not fire. Fired on second attempt.
The set trigger works great at the range, but I would practice without using it for hunting purposes.
1/48 twist should work just as well for PRB if that is what you want to shoot.
Hope this helps

Good insights....
If it were me, I would replace the nipple for the #11 caps.

sounds to me like the edges are hammered. this is caused sometimes by dry firing. whats the story on the gun? had it since new, used???
just my thoughts!

Tweesdad said:

In order to insure that Pyrodex will fire, I changed to a musket cap nipple, and use those instead of #11. I will never use CCI caps again, as I have had too many instances where the cap did not fire. Fired on second attempt.

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Just as an aside, it sounds to me like your nipple was possily deformed. My used TC had that problem, and I found it was caused because the cap was not firmly seated on the nipple. The first hammer fall would seat the cap on tight but not fire it, then the second hammer fall would fire.

What I did was to take my nipple off and run it on my whetstone that I use to sharpen knives. In less than a minute I had returned the nipple to it's intended shape. Now my caps seat firmly and fire first time, every time. Have not had a misfire so far using regular old CCI #11 caps.

Both kevthebassman and brettsr make a good point.

The problem of a FTF on the first strike followed by a successful ignition on the second strike is commonly caused by a mushroomed nipple, not bad caps. It's possible that the deformation is too small to be noticed by the naked eye but still cause the cap to sit too high on the nipple. It can usually be felt, however, by running a fingernail along the nipple axis to the end.

Call T/C and have them send you a owners manual!

It sounds like you have a worn nipple that should be replaced. CCI #11 primers should work just fine on a nipple that is not peened down, making ANT cap hard to seat. For the subs, you are better off using the Magnum #11 caps sold just about everywhere. The musket caps are not necessary.

It would be nice to see you shoot round ball, lower that charge, and use real black powder, now that you are getting into this sport. Those expensive, heavy conicals are just not needed to hunt most of the game you are likely to hunt with that ML rifle. With Black Powder, you can go back to using those standard #11 caps, which generally are also cheaper.

well if yu are using Pyrodes pellets they are coated at one end with BP as a ignition helper. When you load them you need to remember to load each of them face down that is dark side down.

Mixing them up will change the character of the powder burn which might not be to big a deal at 50 yards but would be more noticable at longer ranges. For a target shooter at least. i use powder myself always

Thank you. The gun is a T/C Hawken, bought used, in excellent mechanical condition. It does not appear to be the nipple, as it was just replaced, and is brand new. Gun has not been dry fired since I bought it.(I know better. I have examined the nipple under 10X magnification, and can see nothing wrong with it.
I prefer musket caps because of the extra bang for the buck. If the cap fires, the gun always goes boom. I use Pyrodex RS, because I think I need the extra boost of the musket cap to insure ignition under extreme weather conditions.(Alaska) I have read an article about a company that makes an adapter that will permit the use of 209 primers with a traditional sidehammer. It replaces the nipple. Unfortunately, I can't find the article, and forgot who makes the device. Can anyone help? This rifle is to be used on Russian Boar and Brown Bear, large game that can do you in. I can't afford the chance of a misfire. I really don't want to use my scoped inline, as I have done that already. Using the Hawken with iron sights is the challenge. I just can't risk a misfire.
Again, thanks to all. If anyone can help with that 209 thing, I would really appreciate it.

ADDENDUM
Just did the research, and came up with the manufacturer of the 209 conversion device.
Mag-spark out of Alabama. Called them direct, and found out that they will be out of production for a while due to machinery problems. It's unsure at this time when they will get back into production, if at all.
Thought you might be interested.

Both the musket cap and the pistol primer can be used. Both of them are way too hot for any kind of serious accuracy using them. Even the magnum caps start to degrade accuracy over the standards. If you want to ensure ignition, put a hotshot nipple on it and remove the screw and place a 2 or 3 grain prime under the nipple in the flash channel. For some reason the accuracy gets better in a lot of guns, not worse like with the hot caps.
The other answer is to seat the cap, lower the hammer and press the cap into position with the hammer. I do this every shot because I have had my share of bad nipples, parts dragging against wood inside the gun because the screws are too tight, and weak hammer springs over the years. Over time you start little habits like that.
If you are going to use RS, then remove the screw for cleaning after every session and use anti-sieze when you put it back. I carry extra screws when hunting because I almost always remove the screw and prime the vent under the nipple when hunting. Those little browned screws are a bugger to find in 6 inchs of leaves!
Even in the unmentionable guns, a number 11 cap will produce better accuracy most of the time when compared to a shotgun or pistol primer. A production sidelock traditional gun is as dependable as the user makes it.
I have the pistol primer nipple you need here somewhere. If I run across it, I will see if you still want one! I tried that route about 25 years ago!

nalamacd said:

I have a black powder rifle that uses the 209 primer! Can i use the powder pellets?What is the second trigger for? Please help me out.

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nalamacd,
You have a b/p rifle that uses a 209primer,with a set trigger.Could you post a
photo of this traditional rifle.????
snake-eyes :hmm:

If you can find it, I'll take it. Let me know how much, and where to send the check. As you must realize, when going after the big stuff, I am willing to give up a bit of accuracy if it will insure reliability.
Thanks