How many Hawken flintlocks?

Does anyone have any information as to what percentage of the Hawken brothers rifles built in St. Louis were flintlocks as compared to the percentage in percussion?

I imagine the majority were built in percussion.

Thank you in advance for the information.

No one to my knowledge has shown proof that any were. The Hawkens did make flintlock longrifles and squirrel rifles, especially before coming to St Louis, but their classic plains rifle was a percussion arm.

True statement that the classic Hawken was percussion and the earlier Hawken rifles from everyone in the family that was building rifles made them in flintlock and mounted them in brass just as other rifle builders did in the same time period. However, it is not my belief that J&S Hawken started making percussion rifles as soon as they crossed the Mississippi and all of a sudden quit the flintlock ignition over night. That is just to unrealistic for me to buy into. I and others who study Hawken rifles believe that many (if not all) of the fullstock Hawken rifles that have brazed on snails and percussioned locks were indeed originally flint. There is simply no way to prove this one way or the other because of records being destroyed in fires, etc. The only fullstock rifle that shows evidence of being percussioned that was originally flint is a late 1850's full stock Hawken that is in the Smithsonian collection which is pictured below.



I do not believe that this rifle was percussioned by the Hawken Shop because of the poor quality of craftsmanship involved in the change. I would suspect it was done by a shade tree gunsmith.

While I buy your premise, it remains to be shown that any half stock Hawkens were made in flint. Even the full stocks may have been made in perc or both--use of a flint lock plate modified to perc does not necessarily mean the rifle was first built as a flinter--only the lock. I have not examined the Smithsonian gun, but the flintplate with perc hammer and barrel drum for nipple were used by some makers at times to make original perc guns--in fact, I did it on my first rifle. I am willing to believe that the very early St Louis Hawkens rifles included some flintlocks--because it is reasonable. But not proven.

I don't recall anything being said about flintlock halfstock Hawken rifles.

Quoted from the book "The Plains Rifle"

It is possible that Ashmore supplied the flintlocks for the earliest Hawkens. He goes on to state, that in his personal opinion that a great many more flintlock Hawkens were made than is generraly supposed. The rate of survival for early Hawken rifles must be very low. Most were worn out ,destroyed, or captured by the Indians. Most of the survivng specimens are surely post 1840 vintage.

It is certain they were made, but the numbers are not recorded.

The James Clyman hawken rifle that John Bivins wrote up fot "Muzzle Blast" magazine several years ago is a full stock Flintlock Hawken rifle in the typical hawken profile with, I believe, typical mounts.

Randy Hedden

Randy are there any pics of that gun anywhere?, I have heard about it often but never seen it.

Randy, do you have that issue and a way to scan and post the article here? I would like to see it too. I don't know how I missed that article.
Thanks,
Don

Cooner54 said:

I don't recall anything being said about flintlock halfstock Hawken rifles.

Click to expand...

Sorry, it is usually assumed by most that the "Hawken" term refers to the classical half stock rifle that made them famous--and was the main output of the St Louis shop--and is the one most often "reproduced" or the label given to half-stocks such as the TC 'Hawken' and others, which are now being made in flint versions. No one that I know doubts that the Hawkens bros made flintlock longrifles--the question usually arises over whether or not they made their classic plains rifle [half stock] in flint. When the subject comes up, usually confusion reigns because commonly the questioner has the classic rifle in mind and some responders cloud the issue by pointing to 'converted' full stock rifle(s?).

I see. If any primary documentation ever showed up that the Hawken Bros. made Halfstock flintlock rifles? That would definitely rock my world. Very doubtful. But, even that is not impossible. I have learned to never say never. I still have a doubt that the Smithsonian rifle was ever flint. Look at the percussion fence on the tang at the breech.

I asked Don Stith that same question some time back. I believe he said he'd seen three or four over the years that may have been originally flint. You could infer from that that darned few were made in flint. Another example of a fullstock rifle that may have been originally flint that also likely dates to the 1830's is the Kollar rifle which was unfortunately destroyed in a house fire some years ago. It had a plugged touch hole with an applied bolster as well as a converted lock. The rifle was recreated in one of the early BOB books and there was an article on the Rifle by Dr. Kollar back in the 80's in the old Buckskin Report. Neat gun, but not nearly as common as sources from the 1940-70 period would have you think.

Sean

If you want a fullstock flint Hawken no one can really say you are wrong because it is possible. But then why not just go with either a "trade rifle" such as the J.J.Henry or an 1803 Harpers Ferry which many folks feel was the Grandaddy of the Hawken plains rifle? You won't get any arguments as to correctness of those rifles for a rendezvous gun and I find them more comfortable to shoot than the exaggerated hook of the Hawken butt plate.
Besides, it won't look like any other gun at rendezvous. :grin: