Starting out on the right foot - .58 Cabelas Hawken

Now that I've made my "Howdy", I can get down to my real reason for being on this forum.

I've acquired a .58 caliber, Cabelas (Investarm, Fabbrica D'Armi, ...), Hawken, percussion (Is that redundant with Hawken?) rifle. I think it's in like-new condition, at least it certainly is on the outside and the previous owner doesn't seem to be a rifle abuser.

I know I should already be reporting how it shoots and how much fun it is making smoke instead of sonic booms, but the fact is that my life has been really interfering with my hobby this year and last - so I'll be lucky if I get to play with this rifle before September or October. Meanwhile, I'd like to pick your brains for a little more understanding of using and caring for this rifle:

I see that cheaply constructed ram-rods can be an issue - a servicablilty issue and maybe a safety issue. Is the ram-rod that comes with this Hawken likely to be fully adequate, or should I be looking to replace it with something better ASAP?

I understand that this rifle has an "intermediate" twist, 1:44 or 1:48 (I can't remember what I was told.) and should serve well for either PRB or conicals. Is it truly an all-purposes twist or is it predictable that it will get better accuracy with one type of projectile over another?

I look forward to taking this rifle deer hunting in the future. I'm so clumsy with the pump-action of my 870 that I never get off a second shot anyway, so I don't think I'll feel under-gunned with this Hawken. Contrary to what I'd heard, I see that there is some type of sabotted projectile for this caliber. Do I want to try that? The previous owner says it shot well with REAL bullets - I bet that's a big honking piece of lead! Do I want to experiment in that direction?

I'm thinking a PRB of this caliber is going to be pretty adequate for hunting. But I'm not really the highly adept, stealthy stalker I'd like to be and I'm lucky to get within 75 yards of a deer. Will PRB be suitable at 50 to 75 yards with the possibility of trying to reach 100 yards mostly because of poor range estimation? Or should I be looking at other projectiles for hunting at those distances.

I'll be happy to use real black powder. Is FFg about right for this .58 caliber?

I've seen a lot of useful gadgets in the Cabelas catalog, but I suppose I should get a current Dixie catalog before I start warming up the debit card. Is there any other catalog I should be perusing?

Since the only muzzleloading supplies I have are for my Ruger Old Army, I'll be needing to put together an outfit. The following list comes to mind. Are there any obvious omissions or anything listed tht I really don't need?

A cleaning brush to fit into the Patent Breech diameter.

A capper.

#11 caps. (I guess.)

An improved nipple?

An adjustable brass powder measure.

A CO2 discharger.

Oops, my life is intruding again and I have to go. Thanks in advance for all the help.

CT from the City

I can speak up on the 58 PRB for deer. A friend has the same gun, and I watched him whap a deer at 75-80 yards. Dropped fast. He's shot quite a few with it over the years, some with conicals.

His take on it is that conicals only offer an advantage at longer ranges, but the sights limit your ability to make longer shots with any bullet. He's a very good shot, but won't take a 100 yard shot without a steady rest and lots of time to set up the shot.

A receiver sight and new front sight would help, and he's done that for messing around. Took it all of and went back to primitive sights and PRB for hunting.

His rig performs so well that it certainly has me thinking about a 58, even though I already have a couple of 54's.

A .570" round ball is more than plenty for deer out to 100 yards IF you have the accuracy for reliable shot placement at that distance. I'd sure work with patched balls and try for the best groups. The problem with conicals in the big bores is that a conical, if it is to have any advantage over a ball, must be considerably heavier than the ball. When you are launching 500 grains or more of lead you really can't get much velocity within limits of tolerable recoil. The old standard musket load from Mr. Lincoln's war only produced about 850-900 fps and at that speed the trajectory was very curved, requiring different sighting for 50 and 100 yards. A slight error in range estimation would result in high or low shots. With a round ball at 1600 fps or better, a load still not too unpleasant to shoot, one can sight in about three inches high at 50 and still be no more than an inch or two low at 100, that gives you a lot more margin for error.
Conicals certainly do improve penetration of .45 and .50 calibers but a .58 doesn't need them and for deer only, I don't think .50's need them either.

Try using FFg powder in that gun. 70 grains should be enough, but put more in it if you think the gun will shoot better. #11 caps ( standard ) should be enough for your needs. A replacement nipple is always an extra to afford. Get a capping tool so you don't have to fool with picking the caps out of a tin in cold weather with your fingers. I reommend the Tedd Cash banana shaped capper as it will hold a whole tin of caps, is easy to load, is easy to turn the caps upright by just jiggling the tool, and is easy to use when capping your nipple. Keep a pair of needle nose pliers in your bag to remove stuck caps. A knife can work, too, or course, but that's a lousy thing to do to the edge of any knife I own!

You are going to have to schedule some time at the range between now and September if you think you are going deer hunting with that gun. Just mark it on your daily calendar, and when someone wants to set something on that day and time, just tell them you have a prior commitment. Its none of their business what that commitment is. No one is going to shoot any gun well without a lot of practice.

Stick with the PRB. The optimum Rate of Twist for the .58 would be 1:70.( caliber times 120. Ex: .58 x 120 = 69.6) ) However, a faster rate of twist will also work, requiring less powder and less velocity to stabilize. The only way to know your rifle's Rate of twist is to actually measure it. Put your ramrod down the barrel using a jag, and one or two lubed patches so that its a very tight fit going down. The mark the ramrod, and the barrel and with draw the rod until it has turned enither 1/4 or 1/2 and arc. Measure the length of the rod between your first mark and the muzzle to determine the length that ramrod has traveled as it is twisted by the rifling. Then multiply that length by 4 or 2 depending on how much of the arc of the circle you used, to get the correct Rate of Twist for that barrel. A lot of .58s will come with a 1:60 ROT.

Ithink you willbe looking at a cleaning jag
-patches for cleaning
-a short starter for .58 T/C T handel fits O/C ram rod good for reteving stuck ram rod ball ect
-patch lube ( balistol) is what I use4 parts waterto 1part Balistiol, soke patches let dry over night, can also be use mixed for cleaning lube on cleaning patches.
-patches .015 or greater
-patch retevier
-October Country under barrel brass ram rod
- powder horn or little funel thing that goes over BP container opening
- time to work up a load that gets the best acuracy. Start at 60grns of BP and work up in 5grn increaments.
I think that is about it. Welcome to the adiction of black powder.Regards Fisher King.

I cant add much to all above and it sounds like you got the idea down good. I would use the "ball" first, its easy to get on target and let you learn what your gun likes or dont. You'll want to shoot as much as you can and you might use loads on here as a starting place 98every one likeing something different) and go up or down 10grs from 70. You can use the minie but use a short one and it is really overkill at 70 yds and you might blow a lot of meat away too :rotf: Fred :hatsoff:

Get a good possibles bag to put all your stuff in.

I have the same rifle in .54. I use the normal rods which are delivered with the rifle. My trader said, and it is true, that the Investarm/Cabelas rods are the only one which can be used in practice.

I bought the Cabela's Hawken Hunter Carbine in .54 cal. and managed to break the ramrod in my first trip to the range. :nono: I ended up getting an aluminum rod that you can cut to fit with fittings at each end. It works great. So to make a long story short, get a replacement ramrod and get rid of the wooden one that comes with the gun.

Oh yeah, I didn't even try to break that rod and it broke!!! It really suprised me when it broke in half. :bull:

if you get a replacement rod in aluminium or fiberglass, you need to get a muzzel protector or make a hunting one out of brass.i made two from
45/70 cases but you will need something a bit biger for the .58 here a pick of the one i made from the .45/70 case good luck with the gun.
bernie :thumbsup:

:thumbsup: I'd suggest getting better sights front & rear, a Lyman 57ML mounts on the tang rather easily. The as issue sights really limit accuracy and don't work as well in low light situations while hunting. :hmm: A Ted Cash capper works great. A ball bag, the "turtle" carries well. A Prb will drop anything in the lower 48, and a 58 is big enough to start with, doesn't need to expand. A slug gives way more impact and recoil than needed unless you're after bison or brown bear. Get some big fuzzy pipe cleaners at the local craft store for cleaning and drying the flash channel between the nipple and patent breech. Always keep this area oil free prior to loading and you'll have fewer or no problems with ignition. :thumbsup: Invest in a good ram-rod, synthetic or metal of your choice, a broken rod thru the hand is no fun. :shake: As for loads for hunting, start with 60 grains of FFg and work up, a .570 ball & .010" patch, a wool "Wonder wad" over the powder does wonders for reducing patch burn-thru. :thumbsup: Learn your gun, practice always a good excuse to go shoot, do we need one? :thumbsup:

Paul:

Don't worry, I won't be taking this arm hunting until I've worked out with it and I won't have time to hunt deer this year anyway. I already spend about 30 days a year at the range, but that's all volunteer work and it's a big part of what squeezes the life out of my life! (Don't get me wrong, I'm glad to be doing what I'm doing, but I'd sure like to go to the range to SHOOT sometimes!)

I've seen that Cash's capper comes highly recommended around here. Where would I find one?

All:

Okay I've added to the list a possibles bag (I kind of knew that.), short starter, patch retriever, and a ball bag. I haven't tried to list all the regular supply items.

Will I be cutting a patch each time I load a ball or using a correctly pre-sized patch?

Where do I look for all this stuff besides Dixie and Cabelas?

Even though I'm not likely to be all that much of a primitivist, I think I'll resist having a metal or synthetic ram rod. I've seen a couple of good avenues for getting a high quality wooden rod (or wood over a steel core) mentioned on this site. I'll have to give the OEM rod a good going over and decide whether or not I have to chase down a replacement right away.

Can anyone please recommend a book or two that really cover the mechanics of shooting a muzzleloader? I've probably read about a million pages of general firearms literature and have maybe a general awareness of the muzzleloading concepts but I really would like to have a handy resource of a more specific nature. If I were to join the NMLRA, would I find a lot of specifics in their magazine or mostly history, "color" and whimsy. (No offense, I like history, color and whimsy.)

Thanks for the guidance, folks! I knew this looked like a pretty knowledgeable site.


Edited to say: The light went on when I typed NMLRA. I see that most everything I might want or need is available from vendors linked from their site.

I try to make the trip to Friendship each year, and just buy my things there. However, you can order the capper through Track of the Wolf, and other suppliers. Seen the links to them under Member resources on the index page towards the top.