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Old Ironsights

40 Cal.
Joined
Mar 28, 2006
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To begin, I am not an "expert". (“Ex” is an unknown quantity, and "spert" is a drip under pressure.)

Since I am not an unknown drip under pressure :grin: , I claim no knowledge or preconceived notions about modern commercial Black Powder (except in the case of Elephant, which I will not discuss).

That said, I have undertaken an experiment to evaluate five common varieties of powder for several criteria.
NOTE: "accuracy" is not among the criteria I am evaluating.

I recently ordered mixed powder from Powder Inc. I received one pound each of Goex, Goex Express, Swiss and KIK in 3F. (I also will be receiving one lb of Graf 3F, which will be added to the test as soon as I get it.)

My first question was: “How consistent is the granulation in a pound of powder?”

To analyze this, I sifted each pound of 3F with a 3F Master Screen from CalGraf (http://www.cal-graf.com/screen.html) (yes, I know they are BP cartridge guys).

Before screening, I tumbled each can lightly and poured off 1 oz of powder for later velocity testing. I then double-sifted each pound and weighed the results on a standard Palouze Spring-type postal scale. All 4 brands of powder had more than 16oz net wt of powder in the can.

SWISS powder yielded 11.3 oz of 3F and 4.0 oz of 4F & Fines. (11.3+4.0+1 = 16.3oz)

Goex Express yielded 9.3 oz of 3F, 7.3 oz of 4F/ Fines. (9.3+7.3+1 = 17.5oz !!!)

KIK yielded 7.3 oz 3F, 9.0 oz 4F/Fines (7.3+9.0+1 = 17.3oz !!!)

Goex (Red can) yielded 4.9 oz 3F and 10.7 oz 4F/Fines !!! (4.9+10.7+1 = 16.6oz)

All I can say is”¦ wow. No wonder consistency can be a bugger when ½ or more of your powder may or may not be 4F. Obviously Swiss came out “best” here. (Until I test the Graf)

(BTW: Now I have nearly 2 lbs of 4F/Fines. Yay”¦ Set for life I suppose.)

Other Observations:

Swiss & Express have a “shiny” appearance to the granules. Goex and KIK are not shiny, and KIK actually produced a micro-fine dust that had to be wiped off the catch-bin in the sifter. No other powder did this.

Link to slideshow of Pics (FLASH-based, click on individual pic to expand):

Next up, Sifting Graf and shooting 3F for Velocity and Fouling. Hopefully this weekend. :thumbsup:
 
Thanks for posting this...

Do you have the means to check things like moisture content, burn rate, burn temperature, ect?

Of corse, any test is worth doing them, the more we learn, the better we are for it...
 
Musketman said:
Thanks for posting this...

Do you have the means to check things like moisture content, burn rate, burn temperature, ect?

Of corse, any test is worth doing them, the more we learn, the better we are for it...
Unfortunately, no. I'm not that technical. :winking: (edit - I COULDtest burn rate, at the expense of a bunch of powder, but that test comes perilously close to talking about my homebrew... :shocked2: )

I thought that it would be best to post about the things we can observe and control anyway. :grin:
 
Good stuff OS...also think it might be interesting to know what the sifted % mix might be at the time a can is filled/packed at the plant...vs....the % mix that would screen out after gosh knows how much handling, shaking, vibration, etc, etc, by the time an individual can reaches someone's door...depending on how much and how rough the handling/jostling might be from one can compared to another, even if they all left the plant with the same average ratios to begin with, there's bound to be more 'fines' when the can reaches the residence than when it left the plant...even several separate individual can orders might be different.

In fact, if you'll agree to continue your sample testing for the rest of the year, I'll agree...at no charge, mind you...to field test those cans as you forward them on to me (Goex will be fine)
:grin:
 
leads me to beleive that if i go to J&J pryo in moscow PA 20 miles from home that i would not have this problem....she gets all the powder i need together and i pick up the next day....they make it there i understand....less handling....hmmmmm....do keep us informed........bob
 
white buffalo said:
"...they make it there i understand..."
Bob, I think J&J is just a Goex distributor...I think Goex only has one manufacturing plant and it's down in Dayline, LA...
[url] http://www.goexpowder.com/history.html[/url]
 
Last edited by a moderator:
Old Ironsights said:
To begin, I am not an "expert". (“Ex” is an unknown quantity, and "spert" is a drip under pressure.)

Since I am not an unknown drip under pressure :grin: , I claim no knowledge or preconceived notions about modern commercial Black Powder (except in the case of Elephant, which I will not discuss).

That said, I have undertaken an experiment to evaluate five common varieties of powder for several criteria.
NOTE: "accuracy" is not among the criteria I am evaluating.

I recently ordered mixed powder from Powder Inc. I received one pound each of Goex, Goex Express, Swiss and KIK in 3F. (I also will be receiving one lb of Graf 3F, which will be added to the test as soon as I get it.)

Personally, I would of purchased the Swiss-only in FF. Cleaner and faster -- first class powder.
:v
 
i guess i understood wrong :bow: ....but i can still git it there :hatsoff: .............bob
 
Moscow is 10 miles away from me - J&J is a Goex distributor but they also import a lot of black powder products - such as the fireworks that the Scranton/Wilkes-Barre Red Barons shoot off every Friday night at their home baseball games. For those of you who may not know, Goex was located on the outskirts of Scranton for many years as Goex and for many more years before that as E.I. DuPont. Made blackpowder and munitions for every war from the Spansih American through Viet Nam. Plant used to explode evry 6 ot 7 years on average and a few workers would usually disappear. Used to be a lot easier and a lot cheaper to get Goex powder.
 
Interesting info, but the scientist in me wonders how the data would change if you measured more than one can for each type of blackpowder. Averages with a low standard deviation provide the most confidence in the results. :snore:
That said, from a sample of 1, it looks like I should try some Swiss when I can afford it.
 
Old Ironsights,
A question. Since most of us shoot what comes out of the can without sifting out the fines, why are you not recombining your test powder so that further testing reflects what comes out of the can and not your more perfect sifted granulation? I, obviously, am curious about the differences in the off the shelf powders.
 
Sometimes during a bad winter when trucks carrying powder have to travel long distances
with chains on their tires, 3f may be 4f by the time it's delivered. I've been told this by powder distributors and I have no doubt that it happens but wheather it make's much difference except in extreme cases is another question.
 
Sneakon said:
Interesting info, but the scientist in me wonders how the data would change if you measured more than one can for each type of blackpowder. Averages with a low standard deviation provide the most confidence in the results. :snore:

Well, I is a po' man so testing more than one can of each was not in the bank book. But I agree. A sample of one is anecdotal - but interesting none the less.

I will, however, repeat as necessary as I buy more powder and plug the data into a spreadsheet. :hmm:

A question. Since most of us shoot what comes out of the can without sifting out the fines, why are you not recombining your test powder so that further testing reflects what comes out of the can and not your more perfect sifted granulation? I, obviously, am curious about the differences in the off the shelf powders.

Good question.

As part of the test I will be shooting a couple of strings of combined powder (the one ounce I pulled off each can before sifting) over the chrony as well as sifted 3F. We shall see then what velocity & fouling difference there may be between firing "from the can" or "from the sifter".
 
Deadeye said:
Sometimes during a bad winter when trucks carrying powder have to travel long distances
with chains on their tires, 3f may be 4f by the time it's delivered. I've been told this by powder distributors and I have no doubt that it happens but wheather it make's much difference except in extreme cases is another question.

Could make a big difference to someone with an old gun who, in an 80gr (vol) load, loads 60gr 4F and 20gr 3F.

It would be interesting to get a "fresh" can from each Mfg and see what the factory granulation % is.

What I'm hoping to prove(?) is how much/little difference there is between firing consistant loads vs mixed loads since it makes a huge difference to the cartridge guys.
 
"What I'm hoping to prove(?) is how much/little difference there is between firing consistant loads vs mixed loads since it makes a huge difference to the cartridge guys."

Thanks for being nice clarifying my initial poor read of your test description. Of course that is why the first ounce was saved. I appreciated this kind of testing and am looking forward to learning the results. Thanks for posting your investigation.
 
Addendum: All powders now sifted.

SWISS powder yielded 11.3 oz of 3F and 4.0 oz of 4F & Fines. (11.3+4.0+1 = 16.3oz)

Goex Express yielded 9.3 oz of 3F, 7.3 oz of 4F/ Fines. (9.3+7.3+1 = 17.5oz !!!)

KIK yielded 7.3 oz 3F, 9.0 oz 4F/Fines (7.3+9.0+1 = 17.3oz !!!)

Goex (Red can) yielded 4.9 oz 3F and 10.7 oz 4F/Fines !!! (4.9+10.7+1 = 16.6oz)

Graf/Schutzen: 7.7 oz 3F, 8.0 oz 4F/Fines (7.7+8+1=16.7)

That puts Graf between Goex Express and KIK for qty 3F/lb.

Graf is, if anything, MORE "dusty" than KIK. Sifting produced quite noticable clouds of fine dust.

Pics will be downloaded after the weekend when I am back on Broadband.

I've got a lot of shooting to do... :thumbsup:
 
Old Ironsights said:
Goex (Red can) yielded 4.9 oz 3F and 10.7 oz 4F/Fines !!! (4.9+10.7+1 = 16.6oz)

Sort of Goex 3 and a half F, eh...well, I just hope Goex doesn't hear about your tests and start tinkering with their 3F granulation 'cause I shoot it 99% of the time and whatever it is, it's been outstanding for me!

:thumbsup:
 
roundball said:
Old Ironsights said:
Goex (Red can) yielded 4.9 oz 3F and 10.7 oz 4F/Fines !!! (4.9+10.7+1 = 16.6oz)

Sort of Goex 3 and a half F, eh...well, I just hope Goex doesn't hear about your tests and start tinkering with their 3F granulation 'cause I shoot it 99% of the time and whatever it is, it's been outstanding for me!

:thumbsup:

Me too!

I wonder though, does every manufacturer use the same screen :hmm:

I don't think they do.

I would expect granulation size to vary from manufacturer to manufacturer. Especially since most all of these powders are made in different countries.

HD
 
Goex red can works for me as well. It would be interesting to know what criteria the various manufactuers use. Does the government regulate
the Fs or does each factory make it's own rules, such as, before we can call it 3F it must contain
x oz. of 3F. That rule has to exist somewhere.
You would't think so but maybe 4.9 is all the 3F required by Goex but I'd think at least 8 oz.of 3F should be required to call it 3F.
 
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