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reddogge said:
fw,
Here is a partial description from Charles Hanson's book "The Plains Rifle" p37 where he is paraphrasing a description of a typical Hawken rifle in a book by James Serven, "Early Western Rifles" (Muzzle Blasts, May 1945).

"Average new bore was .50 caliber or slightly larger,...Full stock rifles I have inspected average 9 1/2 pounds in weight and about 38 1/2" in barrel length. Barrels are octagon and of 1" outside dimensions."

It goes on but that should interest you about the barrels.

On page 41 Hanson mentions the barrels were about .53 caliber, slow twist, soft iron, and took 150-215 grains of powder as a charge. They would shoot almost flat to 150 yards and kill at 200 and 250 yards.

He also mentions they had two barrel keys, and most, if not all, were stocked in walnut stained maple.

Just a thought you may consider when reading the above statement is that in one paraphrase he is talking about fullstocks and the latter paraphrase he is talking about halfstocks. Also, many more Hawken rifles have been found and studied since Mr. Serven wrote that article. If he wrote that article today I believe his statement would be quite different. Tapered barrels were the norm and a average bore of .54 and the weight around 10 1/2 - 12 lbs. Fullstocks having three wedges and halfstocks having two wedges. Barrel lengths from 31" - 42" on halfstocks are extant. Walnut stocks are rare on halfstocks and are maple on 99.9% of surviving Hawken rifles whether they are half or fullstock or early or late.
Don
 
Thanks Everyone ! I got a E mail from Stith ,(real nice guy to take time out to answer the Ithaca thing for me and got right back to me) the Ithaca is about what youv just said , he best of the factory made "Rockey Mountain" rifles(that from Braid ,Hawken called them that.)It was no one Hawken but a very good "type" rifle. They short cut the details in real ones.(Had to or charge a bunch more. Thats had me wondering about a lot of them. The TOTW I found a older ad and the one they sold was really the Santa Fe!, even used the Ub barrel (ut you could up grade to a 1 1/18th one. The Hawken shops #7? looked like the Ithaca but not all of it as another Kit Carson ect,ect. No one has that "Mountin man Rifle" book TOTW is the "load "book" # 3 that Braid wrote. If anyone has any other Idea how to find it, or the Print Mountain Man and Hawken Rifles sold by the NMLRA 20yrs ago for 3 bucks let me know please,it shows about 12 diffweent Hawkens in it. And Swampman get the pics up . I've got the money but not the time to make one (or know how I'd bet) Whats the best today Stith or Hawken shop?? thanks much Fred :grin: :hatsoff:
 
I want to ad this to what I've read about how much powder they shot. I'm going to have to belive the 200 and up, just to many things in MB from the 60s + 70s about it still being used on org rifles up in Alaska,that and I've found 3 things about How Safe Big Charges are,In 86 they have test of 50cal at 50'000psi for 500 shots no problem,some had 5 RBs and 500grs no bulge. and some of these are 7/8th barrels so what happensd are they makeing :cursing: barrels now 110 max or what?? Cause it seems that the 200 load and up was the norm for Hawkens and I'd bet any of the other same type rifles anyone got a guess to why? Fred :hatsoff:
 
Fred, it depends on what style or era Hawken you want to build. The Hawken Shop Hawken rifle is about 1860's or so, real late. Don Stith's Hawken "kits" are all the way from about 1830's to 1860's. If you want a RMFT Hawken I would definitely go with Don Stith's rifles. I haven't seen the quality of the Hawken Shop rifles since Art Ressel sold the shop so I can't say what the quality is now, but they used to be unsurpassed. Don's rifles are all quality stocks and fittings and besides his prices are a little better for a working man. Don is now working on a "Modena" Hawken that he will offer to the public. Don't know when but soon I hope. I hope this helps you with your decision.
Have you checked out Don's site and the Hawken Shop site to compare prices?
Don
 
It's pretty hard to blow up a modern blackpowder barrel unless you use smokeless powder. Lawyers won't let them post figures that might cause a problem. Heavy charges aren't needed. I rarely use more than 60 grains of 3f in a .50 caliber for hunting or targets.
 
According to J. Baird, an original Hawken styled Kephart rifle was fired 15 times with a proof load of 180 FFG for a total of 15 shots. (At this time this was considered a double load). No problems encountered!

How would our steel today compare with steel of the 1850's?

You are absolutely correct. It would be almost impossible to blow a modern barrel with BP and a properly seated patched ball.
 
flyboy said:
According to J. Baird, an original Hawken styled Kephart rifle was fired 15 times with a proof load of 180 FFG for a total of 15 shots. (At this time this was considered a double load). No problems encountered!

How would our steel today compare with steel of the 1850's?

You are absolutely correct. It would be almost impossible to blow a modern barrel with BP and a properly seated patched ball.

Another thought, if 180 grs. was considered a double load in a 50 or 54 then the normal load would have been a charge of around 90 grs. The heavy Hawken barrel can withstand big charges but I see know reason to waste powder with excessive loads and I doubt the old mountaineers did either except in extreme cases. Such as high winds or other adverse conditions.
Don
 
Don, you're absolutly right. I was just reiterating what Swampman was saying in regards to how hard it would be to blow up a modern barrel unless you were using smokeless powder.
 
I do not know if it is true or not, but I heard somewhere years ago that you could take a TC barrel literally and fill it with black powder and not blow up the barrel. :hmm: I can see an experiment by a willin somebody is needed .. any takers? :shocked2:

Davy
 
Thanks everybody, Cooner as I posted above I E mailed then talked to Don, real nice guy , full of info. As flyboy and swampman said why waste it? All I can think of is these 52 to 60 cals shooting at 200 yds , Braids book,and others keep bring up 200(around that)grs and 200 yds, why?? I finnshed the 1986 back and forth about barrels and some of them,just plain 1"50 cals took a lot of shoots with 500 and 600 grs no bother AS LONG AS the ball was seated ect..1 thing it seemed the patch was being blown to hell and gone :rotf: so I guess 400 or so grs is safe! DAVY you say you got a TC you want to shoot? :shocked2: :rotf: Have a good day everyone it going to start with freezing rain here soon. And 1 other thing if I built a true to Hawken's Hawken it would'nt have all the really nice wood I've seen on here. Ive got 17 pics of 1830s thru 1850 and none have real nice wood no stripes ect , but some have a dark marbel pattern? I'd still go for the better wood.Fred :hatsoff:
 
You're right about the wood Fred. My first two Hawkens That I had made for me are stocked with staight graine walnut. But the latest one I had built is stocked with a beautiful SP curly maple. I know it's not exactly the most authentic but I just could'nt resist!
 
Fellas, there are plenty of original Hawken rifles out there that have super fancy maple stocks that are otherwise plain rifles. There are very few walnut stocked Hawken rifles. Just looking at the rifles in Baird's book will show you that. Fancy maple is just as authentic as plain maple. If you want fancy maple on a plain rifle make it confidently at least in that detail. I would guess that about half of the original Hawken rifles I have had the honor and privelege to handle have been stocked in curly maple and none of them were fancy in any other details except one and it was a J&S Hawken. It had silver inlays and a silver patch box with a plain maple stock. I guess fancy maple was an easy way to make a plain rifle look dressed to kill.(No pun intended) :grin:
Don
 
You're right about the maple socks Don. Many of the originals were stocked with maple rather than walnut. My choice of wording was'nt the best. I was referring to my latest Hawken that I had built for me. It's not exactly run of the mill. Besides the SP curly maple stock, I had silver bands inletted at both the breech and muzzle areas of the rifle in the manner that Tistam Campbell did and I also had a beautful silver oval inlay with an eagle inletted into the cheek piece. Wish I could post a picture of it but I don't have a scanner.
 
Sounds purdy, wish I could see it. Those Hoffman-Campbell rifles were great looking rifles. Not all of them were fancy but some of the dressiest Hawkens were Hoffman-Campbell made.I believe that they were the fellas that introduced the flat to wrist guards on Hawken rifles around 1842. That is a good indicater as to dating a rifle. I don't think a rifle with a flat to wrist guard can be dated earlier than that. Before that the Hawkens had the round circle tail scroll. It seems after 1842 or so the Hawkens used the flat to wrist guards and the so called Late Hawken guards simaltaneously up until about 1855. After that date they used the late guard with the slanted drop away finger rail almost exclusively. I have seen a few of the big plains Hawken rifles with the late guards with the finger spur on the bow, i.e.the Smithsonian Hawken and the Cowboy Hall of Fame Hawken. If you GOOGLE Images of Hawkens you will find a picture of the Cowboy Hall of Fame Hawken. It's on the Cowboy Hall of Fame website last I checked.
Don
 
i know i'm a bit late, but here's mine.

hawken004.jpg
 
Im sure your right it must be just the color pics I've got of orgs. I see some just not any like the great wood on some of these posted here. I't took all night to read Braids 2nd book, boy he jumped on a lot of factory guns calling themselfs Hawkens!(1970) And took up for the H+A underhammer as a org cheap way to get into MLing back then. I didnt mean I did'nt see some nice wood , just not like on here , but I'm sure they made them. I like what he said about the plans he drew and sold,then had to change them, then again, he must of seen a many Hawken. I did find his first book, and I guess I'll be looking to build or buy a 1830s to 40s , the Ithaca is fine for the " Kit Carson" type , and it's close enough , Anyone looked close at the pic in the 2nd and the 1826 on here (just a lock pic)looks like a first try on the one on here. But as everyone has said changes after changes seems no 2 are alike. Fred :hatsoff:
 
Welcome MrBill, Looks like a good enough rifle to cut your teeth on. Are you interested in building an accurate copy of a Hawken Rifle? If so, we're here to help you. Just fire away with the questions and we'll try to answer them for you. :winking:
Don :hatsoff:
 
Don, you're most correct about the flat wrist guards being used on the early Hawkens. All of mine are styled after the later Hawkens. Just like the looks of the Hoffman-Campbell rifles better. But I am starting to save my pennies for my next Hawken, and that will definately be an old style. I'm going to have a full stocked flintlock Hawken made. I've finally decided to get my first flintlock!
 
Swampman, that rifle is absolutely beautiful! You actually got that for $500.00? Looks like a steal to me. Nice looking curly maple stock too.

Okay, I'm just curious about a few things. How old is it? Who built it? What are the specs on it?

I'll be anxious to hear!
 
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