Groups breaking down between 25 and 50 yds

I did some load development today for my .40. For reference, it has a 34" A-profile barrel. I tried a couple different charges and ball diameters. All powder was 3f OE, all patching was .018" pillow ticking, and all lube was moose snot. I focused on 40 and 45 grain charges with .390 and .395 balls. Overall, the .395 with 45g grouped best at 50 yds, but I wouldn't call it great. My best group of 4 shots was 2.25" inches, but with each pair touching. What I found weird was that all combinations produced a ragged hole at 25 yards. But moving out to 50 yards, groups opened up way more than I would have expected. The .390 all with 40g was something like 4". The combos of .390 and .395 with 40 and 45g were better (as noted above), but I really didn't expect to go from essentially sub-1" at 25 to over 2" at 50. Maybe I'm missing something here. The patches did not show any obvious tears or scorching (unfortunately, I was against the clock when leaving and forget to grab the spent patches). I know I need more testing, but any ideas are welcome. I do wonder whether the shorter-than-average-barrel would have any effect....

I may be all wet, but I wouldn't find it that shocking, at least not for me. I've become a very good shot at 25 yards, but at 50, 75 or 100 yards ANY mistake or deviation from perfect is amplified. Personally, my eyesight isn't what it once was and I can basically shoot ragged holes all day at 25 yards with most of my rifles, but at 50 the groups open up some and at longer ranges than that it can get really interesting. In my case it's mostly my eyes, but for other people it may be a tiny flinch, a loading sequence that's not entirely consistent, variation in how we hold the rifle or see the sights at different ranges, etc.. We all try to do things precisely the same with each and every shot, but I suspect that few of us really do so.

Ganggreen brings up some good points. Most any decent rifle or smoothbore can be made to shoot 1-hole groups at 25 yds. But the real test of a load and of shooting technique begins at around 50 yards. Natural dispersion aside, minor differences such as breathing, hold, grip, etc can turn a 1" group at 25 yds to a 2" group at 50. And 2" groups at 50 yds is not at all bad IMHO.

Empty your mind every time.
Shoot the same way every time in every action every breath every movement.

I know it sounds a bit overly zen but it works. It takes time to actually learn what you yourself are doing but spend time and then your shooting improves and the groups tighten.
I would not waste time with a rifle at 25 m.

2" group at 50 yards would be great for my eyes and injured arms.

I'm going to assume this is a rifle. Are you using cast or swaged balls? If cast, are you loading sprue facing up? I had been fighting this problem last year. Groups at 50 yards were as good a 1" and as bad as 1 1/2". Then at 75 yards, 3-4", and by 100 yards I was lucky to get all on paper. The problem was I was using swaged balls, and did not sort them. The cure for me was to cast my own, and weight sort them, loading sprue up. Groups at 50 didn't improve much at all, but now I can consistently shoot 5 shot groups measuring 3 1/2" at 100 yards.

Thanks for the feedback and suggestions. Maybe my expectations were not completely realistic, but time will tell. To answers a few questions:

1. These are cast, and I do load sprue up, but i didn't think to sort them by weight. I'll do that next trip.

2. Yes, this is a rifle.

3. I also spend a lot of time shooting barebow recurve archery, and I'm very familiar with the benefits of a zen-like focus. I try to utilize Joel Turner's Shot IQ mental approach in archery, for those that are familiar with the idea. However, i must admit not being as focused in rifle shooting as I am in archery. Gotta work on that....

4. I pretty much don't shoot at 25 after checking that I'm close to centered, so that I'm not off the paper at 50 or beyond. I also don't shoot off the bench except to sight in or work up a load. But this will be my squirrel rifle this year, I want to make sure I can hit a clean head shot at 25-30 yards.

Sorting may help. Weigh a bunch, and figure out what the heaviest is. Lets say it is 92 grains. I would toss anything under 91 grains for sure, and may even consider being more picky than that. In my 54 caliber, I will keep anything within 1 grain, but for hunting, I am very picky, and only keep within 0.2 grains. 1 grain of a 230 grain ball is a change of 0.4347%. By comparison a change from 92 to 91.5 grains is an even bigger change, at 0.5435%!

At 50 you must watch the wind and shoot the same wind condition those rb's in 40 cal blow easy.

A 2" group at 50 is the same as a 1" group at 25. The fractions of MOA continue to diverge from dead center the further the distance. Lots of other good suggestions have been posted to improve groups. It has convinced me to quit delaying and buy a digital scale.

All ammo I shoot in my rifles/guns is home cast in my shop. Never seen a need for weighing or sorting. Tried it once and could see no advantage. A visual inspection while casting works out just fine for me.

Small game calibers, .32 & .36, are sighted in at 25 yards which I consider realistic for small game. It's doubtful I'd take a shot at a squirrel past 30 yards or so. For .40 and up all are sighted for the same 100 yard point blank trajectory.

How tight is your patch / ball combo? Square bottom or grounded groove rifling? The ball MAY be jumping the rifling and knuckle balling its' way down range. If so, a heavier charge may be needed to get it to obdurate in to the grooves better.

If it's not dead on at 25, then the pain will really kick in at 50, then the nightmare at 100. The tightest load is not always the best, and even patching and lube types all play a roll. I really don't think your barrel length is an issue. My friend I shoot next to, shoots a Thompson Center and he scores very well with that.

I am not sure of your age, but if your older a Diopter can really be a big help. It really helps with the focus on the rear sight.

If there’s wind, the further the distance, the longer the wind pushes the ball. If it varies, which it commonly does, it can cause dispersion if not assessed and accounted for.

Col Batguano - the first combo was .390 ball with .018 patch. Then i upped to .395 ball. The tighter combo was a bit better, though harder to start. I believe barrel is round bottom grooves, but I'll have to double check.

Mulebrain - it was dead on at 25; one ragged hole. I never did shoot it at 100 yds. I was hoping for something tighter at 50 than 2+ inches. I'm 42, though I've never had great eyes. I have to wear glasses or contacts for everything farther than 6 inches from my face!

Rich - wind wasn't really an issue. This particular range was built at a landfill where they could build walls 12 feet high for 200yds and only 30 yards wide. At the 25 and 50 yd berms, it was dead still.

I shoot alot of off-hand competition. Started with a Hopkins and allen .45 underhanded when I was 12 IAM 68 now. I win alot and have a ton of experience so trust what I say. I shoot a .40 cal both flint and percusión. My green mt y. Percusión likes .400 ball with .018 sail cloth and tallow and bees wax lube. If I change lubes my group will open up. Powder is 45 hrs 3fffg goe xs.to develope a load you must shoot from the bench. Once finding a good load then you can shoot off hand. A burnt out nipple or a large touch hole will cause vertical problems. Variances in your powder weights will do the same thing weight your charges while developing a load.Also the pressure seating the ball must be the same every time. Cleaning the breech with a scraper is also important. As is cleaning between shots . When bench shooting place your sand bag under the stock. Watch the wind and watch your breathing one full breath let it out then another full breath letting half out . Shoot! Easier said then done. Try to hold the rifle the same every time pulling it into your shoulder.Try these things and if they don't help PM me. Good luck

Prof:
Thanks for the detailed response. Yes, all this shooting was off the bench. I've always tried to keep the pressure on the ramrod equal between shots when seating the ball. If you have any tricks for that, I'm all ears.

Admittedly, I didn't wipe between every shot - more like between every 3-4. I did notice that the last couple shots of a string would close up a tad more than the first couple. I'm not sure that was enough data to conclude that it likes a dirty bore better, but I wonder.... Next time out I'll try wiping more consistently.

A

tnlonghunter said:

Prof:
Thanks for the detailed response. Yes, all this shooting was off the bench. I've always tried to keep the pressure on the ramrod equal between shots when seating the ball. If you have any tricks for that, I'm all ears.

Admittedly, I didn't wipe between every shot - more like between every 3-4. I did notice that the last couple shots of a string would close up a tad more than the first couple. I'm not sure that was enough data to conclude that it likes a dirty bore better, but I wonder.... Next time out I'll try wiping more consistently.

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A good stainless 1/4 range rod will help
. Just push the ball down and one medium tap to make sure it's seated. Don't pound on the ball and just practice doing it the same. Read your patch that will tell you alot .Cutting blowing apart and burn through are all problems indicating different things. I like a patch material you can't see through and don't have pin holes showing through. Post a picture of your patch I'd like to see it .Do as I said and we will figure it out.

Try cream of wheat or a wad between the powder charge and the patched ball. It worked for me, ands it’s cheap to experiment with.

Sam squanch said:

Try cream of wheat or a wad between the powder charge and the patched ball. It worked for me, ands it’s cheap to experiment with.

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Yes that works but if you get the right size ball correct patch and a good lube you shouldn't have to do that unless you have a pitted barrel. That is a band aid on a never healing wound.