Is it really so???

longcruise said:

i can't count the number of times that I have read that the 54 is an ideal b8g game caliber. And, FWIW, the 54 is a big favorite of mine. One of the often cited reasons is it's favorable trajectory. However, something about that seemed suspect in that as round balls get larger the BC improves and therefore, given equal starting velocity, the larger ball should have the better trajectory

Sooo, I ran 4 ball sizes through a ballistics calculator with a velocity of 1700 fps. Turns out that the larger ball is better in the trajectory department but by so little that it's not going to be a factor in most situations. I'm going to guess that better trajectories are going to be more easily achieved with higher velocities. (PHYSICS 101)

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When hunting, no reason to make velocity your prime focus.
Look for higher delivered energy at the point of impact.
The percentage of size increase compared to the percentage of energy increase is the focus.
Delivered energy is what takes game.
You need also focus on the base of 1700fps you use, it takes more powder energy to get a 54 or 58 up to that same 1700fps you are using for a 50. Thereby generating more energy.
There will be negligible trajectory difference because gravity will act on any of the stated rounds if they are all launched at the same speed.
Gravity will pull ALL of them down at the same rate. Flatter trajectories will come ONLY with increased velocity.
Once again consider - you can't cheat at physics.

Griz44Mag said:

When hunting, no reason to make velocity your prime focus.
Look for higher delivered energy at the point of impact.
The percentage of size increase compared to the percentage of energy increase is the focus.
Delivered energy is what takes game.
You need also focus on the base of 1700fps you use, it takes more powder energy to get a 54 or 58 up to that same 1700fps you are using for a 50. Thereby generating more energy.
There will be negligible trajectory difference because gravity will act on any of the stated rounds if they are all launched at the same speed.
Gravity will pull ALL of them down at the same rate. Flatter trajectories will come ONLY with increased velocity.
Once again consider - you can't cheat at physics.

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Pretty much addresses a number of points that were/are of no concern to the OP (me).

Griz44Mag said:

When hunting, no reason to make velocity your prime focus.
Look for higher delivered energy at the point of impact.
The percentage of size increase compared to the percentage of energy increase is the focus.
Delivered energy is what takes game.
You need also focus on the base of 1700fps you use, it takes more powder energy to get a 54 or 58 up to that same 1700fps you are using for a 50. Thereby generating more energy.
There will be negligible trajectory difference because gravity will act on any of the stated rounds if they are all launched at the same speed.
Gravity will pull ALL of them down at the same rate. Flatter trajectories will come ONLY with increased velocity.
Once again consider - you can't cheat at physics.

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Yes indeed. Energy = 1//2 mass times VELOCITY squared. Bigger balls need more powder. A 125 grain charge of Swiss FF under a .530 ball shoots flat and has significant impact energy.

I don't pay much attention to these type of external ballistic charts. The thing to do, IMHO, is to shoot at various distances and sight in at the distance you prefer. From there you can shoot and REALLY see where the poi is at the 25, 50, 75 and 100 yard + targets.

I long ago left fpe behind and rely on momentum for arrows and bullets.

longcruise said:

Pretty much addresses a number of points that were/are of no concern to the OP (me).

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Well - you ARE the one that brought it up - now put your head back in the sand and quit reading, because you were not really looking for an answer???? Your question was about trajectory with all ball sizes with the same starting velocity - and that is the answer - they will ALL have a very close and similar trajectory.

longcruise said:

I long ago left fpe behind and rely on momentum for arrows and bullets.

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So I can only assume that you don't hunt - any. Because if you did you would want to make sure you have enough energy to humanely kill your game. And THAT - is all about energy.

Energy imo is a modern term when high velocity, small caliber modern copper jacket projectiles came out. By modern standards it takes 800-1000 ft lbs to humanly take down deer and elk. Those of us that shoot patched round balls, clearly do not come close to those numbers.

Frontier's said:

Energy imo is a modern term when high velocity, small caliber modern copper jacket projectiles came out. By modern standards it takes 800-1000 ft lbs to humanly take down deer and elk. Those of us that shoot patched round balls, clearly do not come close to those numbers.

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Why so high of an energy level you want to use?
With good shot placement and an adequate size for the wound channel you can safely go to half those numbers.
"Modern" projectiles as you refer to are normally very small compared to most muzzleloader rifles.
Speed is the only way they can make up the delta in killing power when compared to something twice their diameter (or more).

longcruise said:

Well, the numbers are as correct as Point Blank can make them. I'm sitting in the kitchen watcging rain turn to snow so playing with numbers provides some entertainment. Maybe go start a shooting bag later.

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People can say all day that calculations aren't the real world, but you can't cheat the laws of physics. Mass/velocity/trajectory calculations are how NASA launches a satellite that will orbit a distant planet in 5 years... And that math is a HEAP more complex than the velocity/energy/trajectory of a lead ball. That being said, I'm just as happy making smoke and leaving the rocket science to those who get a kick out of it...

Griz44Mag said:

So I can only assume that you don't hunt - any. Because if you did you would want to make sure you have enough energy to humanely kill your game. And THAT - is all about energy.

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A lot of light arrow, high velocity bow hunters will talk about the energy production of their setup. On the other hand, bow hunters shooting slower, heavier arrows will point out that the momentum of a slower/heavier arrow yields better penetration. If you're bullet velocity isn't high enough to produce significant expansion, then I would hazard to say that momentum (and bullet diameter) is your friend.

akaMOTU said:

A lot of light arrow, high velocity bow hunters will talk about the energy production of their setup. On the other hand, bow hunters shooting slower, heavier arrows will point out that the momentum of a slower/heavier arrow yields better penetration. If you're bullet velocity isn't high enough to produce significant expansion, then I would hazard to say that momentum (and bullet diameter) is your friend.

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That would be true.
A modern bullet hunting bullet starts at about .3" in diameter (or less), It will expand to .4 and if extreme maybe .5
A round ball STARTS at .5 and yes - they do expand even bigger.

Slow heavy arrow vs fast light arrow likely have very similar energy levels. (Mass and velocity - plain and simple physics again,
The difference is the velocity - light and fast will travel further, but at the end of the distance - will deliver less energy. - again, simple physics.....

Neither energy nor momentum kill. Tissue destruction is what kills a game animal. That is why paper ballistics so often do not match real world results.

Griz44Mag said:

So I can only assume that you don't hunt - any. Because if you did you would want to make sure you have enough energy to humanely kill your game. And THAT - is all about energy.

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I'll say that there is far more to it than energy.

Not sure how we get traipsing down this "energy" trail when the original was just about trajectory. My original post used a 150 yard zero solely for the purpose of illustrating the elevation of the ball at 100 yards. The graphs clearly show that given equal velocity, the 54 is not the winner in the trajectory department. The differences in the trajectories are inconsequential as has been pointed out by those who are practical hunters. Heck, I'm in that camp too. It's irrelevant because fo4 me and my eyes, shots over 50 yards are mostly out of the question anyway.

I just got home from hunting deer and elk with 598 grain arrows that launch at 145 fps and will slice through both lungs of either animal from any reasonable angle including through a shoulder blade. The reason is momentum. Like a relatively slow moving ball of adequate size it keeps right on going after impact.

The element not being addressed here is resistance. If you double velocity, you double momentum. However, that same doubling quadruples the resistant presented to the projectile upon impact. So, going faster in the quest for fpe brings up the resistance problem. It's only a problem with very fast moving projectiles that may have impressive energy but are too small or too fast to have enough momentum to overcome resistance. SPLAT!

In my view, books written back when muzzle loaders were the only way to hunt game are more useful than modern stuff full of Isaac Newton's formulae. Specifically, THE SPORTING RIFLE AND ITS PROJECTILES, Lieut. James Forsyth, 1863 covers the practical aspects of hunting in India. Where you may be hunting an antelope but meet a tiger. In short, he recommends a 9# shallow-groove, long twist round ball gun of 14 gauge (.70 caliber). Relatively flat trajectory and the superior stopping power of a round ball. Superior to the .577 Enfield of that time (for hunting only, not the military).
Reprints are available from abebooks.com at reasonable cost. While I no longer hunt, I've just enough experience to strongly recommend this book to anyone who might need to shoot any ill-tempered beast at ranges 30 - 130 yards.