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Late model flintlock rifles

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I am not looking to copy exactly a particular rifle, not that I am against it. I am simply trying to keep things in the style of the early 1800's. It definitely seems that the curving stocks, were the style. I'd like to go with a simple brass patch box, nothing too ornate. I only live 20 miles from Track of the Wolf, so I've been leaning towards a kit from them. They will let you mix and match parts, and from what I've seen, their stocks are only partially done, so changes shouldn't be impossible. I'd like to end up with something very similar to the above Derringer trade rifle. What is the barrel length on that gun? What are the typical lengths seen on rifles of this era?
megasupermagnum, google "Aspen Shade Ltd." they have many longrifles in the era looking are searching for - from 1785 thru 1830's. Rifles of that time period have less or no carving than the early rifles typically created now and may have more inlays depending on where they were made & the use intended.

I believe Rich's Derringer rifle has a 43-1/2" barrel of .54 caliber - it's pretty neat & very rare to see that era reproduced.

later, Mike
 
2nd to 4th grade seems about when I had most writing. We also had it in high school though, although it wasn't just just practice forming letters, it was a writing assignment that we had to write all in cursive. We had plenty of computer classes, which make sense I guess, but 95% of the time it was us students trying to show the teacher how to do it! I'd hate to be the one kid who isn't a computer person, but just about all Americans of the millennial generation are very computer literate.

I was always an athlete, my big sport was Football, but I also Wrestled. I tried spring sports, was into track for a while, but never liked any of the spring sports. The very next year after I graduated, Our school started not just a spring fishing league, but also a school trap league. So it isn't all bad.
 
Thank you dd832. I looked through, and particularly liked this rifle. Aspen Shade Ltd. - Current Inventory

It seems to me that the longrifle at least did not change significantly in the early 1800's, other than it seems many went to a more slender form, and of course many have a crescent butt. I haven't seen many with much shorter barrels, they still seem to be that 40" to 46" range. I also notice that the above linked rifle is not too different from the Kibler colonial kit. Maybe I would be in my best interest to get his kit, and try my hand at the basics like adding a brass patch box for one.
 
If the early 1800's includes 1800 on up, there was a significant change that happened to the longrifle.
From 1800 up to around 1820 almost all of the longrifles were flintlocks. From 1820 to 1830, many of the longrifles were percussion and from 1830 up to the end of the Civil War, almost all of the longrifles were percussion.
That's not to say there were no flintlocks made after 1830 but by then, only a few old die-hard shooters wanted a longrifle that used flintlocks to fire them.
 
Well, you got me there. If I forgot to say it, I'm looking at a flintlock only in this case. What I should have said, is it doesn't seem like there was a smooth transition from longrifle to plains rifle as far as length goes. The slight changes seem to be when the stocks go from a smooth curve, to a more abrupt angle like a Hawken. The barrels though all seem to be extremely long until, boom, plains rifles like the Hawken are sporting 30" or so barrels. It doesn't seem like anyone ever liked the 32" to 40" barrels for some reason.

T
 
Basically, during the 1820-1830's there were two lines of thinking when it came to rifles.
The traditional longrifle east of the Mississippi retained it's earlier shapes and became slimmer as the smaller calibers needed for hunting seldom needed to be larger than .45 caliber. As in earlier times, these rifles were often carried by men on foot.

The plains rifles on the other hand needed larger calibers, often in the .54 caliber range, with barrels that could withstand heavy powder charges of 100 grains. They also needed to be robust so they could withstand the damage from falling off a horse or down a hillside.
The larger, stronger barrels of these guns added a lot of weight to the gun so, the barrels were shortened to keep the guns weight manageable. These barrels were in the 28" to 36" length range. Even with the shorter barrels, the Hawken's, Gemmer's, Dimick's and other St. Louis plains rifles often weighed over 11 pounds. That was acceptable because they were usually carried by men mounted on horseback.
 
That's what I would surely think. I certainly wouldn't want to strap a 6' long flag pole of a rifle to my horse, if I was given a choice. Yet it seems the American flintlock rifle was seldom found with a shorter barrel. As shown by plmeek, apparently the long barrels were still popular in the fur trade, even in the larger 54 caliber. It seems there are so many variations, I can't go wrong. Or maybe I'll always be wrong. Trying to stay period correct sure is confusing.
 
It seems there are so many variations, I can't go wrong. Or maybe I'll always be wrong. Trying to stay period correct sure is confusing.

megasupermagnum,

It is confusing, but largely due to the fact that this discussion has expanded in time and geography from your original question where you said, "I'm looking for American rifles that would have been produced say 1800 to 1835." The story of the American longrilfe is multi-faceted with a lot of different things going on in different places at different times. It's difficult to make hard fast statements because there are many examples of exceptions to them. There are general trends and changes, but we can't put definite dates to when the change occurred because they weren't universally adopted. Some gun makers were quick to adopt new styles and technology and others continued to produce rifles in the old style and technology.

The Fordney brothers are a great example of this. Melchoir Fordney was the older brother. He was murdered in 1847, and at the time of his death, he was still actively making rifles. As far as we can tell from his surviving rifles, he never built a percussion rifle. He seemed to still find a market for flintlock rifles into the late 1840's. He also often decorated his rifles in older styles.

Melchoir Fordney Rifle
19010311_1_lg.jpeg


His younger brother, Jacob Fordney, on the other hand, advertised percussion rifles when he first opened his shop in 1830. He also adopted many of the current style characteristics from the Lancaster area where he worked.

Jacob Fordney Rifle


Melchoir Fordney also chose to produce rifles in a small shop with just himself and an apprentice or two. Jacob Fordney built up a much larger operation and by 1835 was advertising that he wanted to hire 15 to 20 Journeymen Gun Makers to staff his "Manufactory".
 
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If you re-create an actual historical rifle or one using features from a group of rifles made by a particular gunsmith in that time period you can’t go wrong. Attempting to do something historically correct without researching is a tough assignment. Using catalogues as reference material is unreliable much of the time.
 
We are getting closer. I tried Track of the Wolf, but most of what they have are straight barrels. I've never had a longrifle before, but I already know I do not want 44" of a straight barrel. Instead I'm leaning towards Sitting Fox. In particular I like the Andrew Verner kit. It seems he was building mostly in the 1790's, and most importantly, the stock shape is very much in that slim and curved appearance that I'm seeing on a lot of those early 1800's rifles. This rifle is recommended for a 42" swamped barrel, which he will do in 54 caliber. That sounds like a pretty good compromise. The only thing I might change is the patch box.
http://sittingfoxmuzzleloaders.com/k-55/

I linked this rifle above, but I'll do it again to be clear. Aspen Shade Ltd. - Current Inventory
What would the brass piece on this rifles fore end be called? A handguard? I kind of like that, I've not seen another rifle with one.
 
This is my first post here, thanks for having me. I'm hoping to get a little help with my first rifle build. I'm currently researching rifles, and I'm looking mainly at mountain man era. I'm looking for American rifles that would have been produced say 1800 to 1835. It seems there is a plethora of info on American rifles just up to and slightly past the revolutionary war. Then it seems info drops off significantly past 1800 until we start getting into the percussion era. I've looked into some trade rifles, and military rifles, particularly the Harpers Ferry 1803 model.
Looking at the American longrifle, it seems there isn't anything after what people now deem the golden age. It seems most kits anyway date their golden age longrifles to only 1800, usually earlier. Did longrifles fall quickly out of favor after the turn of the century, or were they continued to be produced in that general style?
DIFFERENT SUBJECT
I RECEIVED A POST FROM. I THINK. OBEON
THAT I HAVE LOST. I WOULD APPRECIETE A SECOND TRY. I THINK HE SENT IT WHEN I WAS DEAD.
DUTCH
 
We are getting closer. I tried Track of the Wolf, but most of what they have are straight barrels. I've never had a longrifle before, but I already know I do not want 44" of a straight barrel. Instead I'm leaning towards Sitting Fox. In particular I like the Andrew Verner kit. It seems he was building mostly in the 1790's, and most importantly, the stock shape is very much in that slim and curved appearance that I'm seeing on a lot of those early 1800's rifles. This rifle is recommended for a 42" swamped barrel, which he will do in 54 caliber. That sounds like a pretty good compromise. The only thing I might change is the patch box.
http://sittingfoxmuzzleloaders.com/k-55/

I linked this rifle above, but I'll do it again to be clear. Aspen Shade Ltd. - Current Inventory
What would the brass piece on this rifles fore end be called? A handguard? I kind of like that, I've not seen another rifle with one.
The only brass pieces I see on the forend is the two upper and the lower thimble (ramrod guide) and the nosecap.
Almost all Pennsylvania longrifles have those.
The gun in the link showing the simple 2 piece patchbox and the trigger guard with the grip rail standing a considerable distance below the wrist are both features of the earlier (1770-1780'ish) longrifles. I would expect to see a wide butt plate somewhere around 2" to 2 1/8" wide.

According to George Shumway, in his book RIFLES of COLONIAL AMERICA, VOL I, Andrew Verner (also spelled Werner) lived in Buck's County in 1785-1792.
 
Yet it seems the American flintlock rifle was seldom found with a shorter barrel. As shown by plmeek, apparently the long barrels were still popular in the fur trade, even in the larger 54 caliber.

People have rationalized that many changes in the American longrifle occurred for practical reasons, when in reality, fashion probably had a lot to do with it. The changing preference in barrel length may be an example.

Early gun writers speculated that the American longrifle evolved from the short barrel (30" or less) German Jaeger rifle, and that the longer barrel American rifle was necessary because of the poor quality of powder in the Colonies that needed a longer barrel to completely burn.

More recent research has shown that long barrel rifles were not uncommon in the Germanic countries of the old world in the first half of the 18th century and that long barrel Germanic rifles and long German rifle barrels were being imported into the Colonies in the 1730's (Lienemann, pg 66). Caspar Wistar, an emigrant from Germany that settled in Philadelphia, was importing rifles from Germany as early as 1737 with barrels "none under 3 feet and 2 inches long or preferably longer."

The theory that the Jaeger evolved into the longrifle envisions "transition" rifles of intermediate length barrels. The famous Edward Marshall rifle has been described by many as a perfect example of one of these "transition" rifles with its 37-13/16 inch barrel. The problem is that the barrel on the Edward Marshall rifle was most likely made in Germany and imported into the Colonies, or possibly, the Edward Marshall rifle is a restocking of a German made rifle of the type that Caspar Wistar was importing. In either case, it challenges the notion that the long barrel rifle was an American "invention".

Edward Marshall Rifle - 37-13/16" barrel
Edward Marshall Rifle001.jpg


German Trade Rifle - 39-7/8" barrel

19140021_1_lg.jpeg


The customers in America simply developed a preference long barrel rifles, but they had previously existed in Europe.

Why the preference for longer barrels in the Colonies? The idea that the longer barrels were needed to facilitate the complete burning of the poorer quality powder available in the Colonies is not supported by evidence. In the Colonial period, very little gun powder was being made in the Colonies. Nearly all of it was imported. The same powder available in England and Europe was available in the Colonies. Surviving documents show that different grades of powder were available depending on source and price.

Modern experiments show that black powder burns extremely fast. The rate of burn is more a function of the size of the powder grains than anything else. Nearly all the powder is consumed by the time a ball travels a foot or so down the barrel. Longer barrels produce higher velocities because they provide more time for the expanding gases to accelerate the ball.

The quality of black powder is primarily determined by the purity of the saltpeter or potassium nitrate used to make it. British gunpowder improved in the middle of the 18th century when the East India Company gained control of Bengal and its supply of higher quality saltpeter.

Other factors that influence the ballistic quality of gunpowder is the size of the initial grind and mixing of ingredients (potassium nitrate, sulfur, and charcoal), the ratio of the ingredients, the type of wood used to make the charcoal, and the corning process (the process by which meal powder, or finely divided black powder, is compressed into cakes, crushed, and then screened by particle size).

Both long barreled and short barreled guns existed in Europe and England throughout the 18th century. As a general rule in the sporting world, a gun used to shoot waterfowl had a longer barrel than a gun used to shoot upland game. This distinction had little to do with powder quality and more to do with the distance the shot was expected to travel, the desired pattern for the shot, and the style of shooting.

The change in preference from a long barrel rifle to a short barrel rifle as described by Zonie and driven by the caliber size and power and the opportunity to be carried on a horse sounds logical, but it is more complicated than that.

The longhunters that ventured west of the Appalachian Mountains before and after the AWI to hunt deer and bear for their skins or to trade with the Indians for skins used horses to carry their supplies and trade goods out and the skins back. Out West, there were several trading and trapping expeditions from St. Louis to the mountains that used horses before 1822, and of course, many more after that date. Nearly all of these trappers and traders that carried a rifle had a long barrel Kentucky rifle. The short barrel "plains" rifle didn't become popular until after the end of the mountain man era.

Many of the surviving J&S Hawken rifles have barrel lengths in the range of 37" to 39" and some are as long as 42". The typical St. Louis "plains" rifle with barrels 30" to 34" long by likes of S. Hawken, H. E. Dimick, and J. P. Gemmer didn't come about until 1850 and later. The same with the short barreled Leman Indian rifle.

Late 1833, the American Fur Company ordered 20 steel mounted rifles with 38" barrels from J.J. Henry. I suspect the steel mounted Henry rifles, which were first ordered at the end of 1830 in 42" and 44" barrel lengths, were in response to the gaining popularity of J&S Hawken rifles in the mountains. As stated above, barrels in the 38" range are common on surviving J&S Hawken rifles. In 1840, the AFC ordered J. Henry to make one Lancaster pattern rifle with a 30" barrel. This was the shortest barrel ordered since the 38" in 1833. Since only one was ordered, it appears to be a special order for an individual or a pattern rifle to test the market.

So if the short barrel "plains" rifle evolved because of the ease of use on a horse, it sure took a long time for the longhunter, mountain man, western traveler, and Plains Indian to realize it. At the sametime that the St. Louis gunmakers were cranking out their "plains" rifles, the short barrel, half stock rifle was gaining widespread popularity in the Northeast, South, and all the way to California. for target shooting and hunting--most of it without the use of a horse.

As one looks into the details of when and where short barrel rifles were common, it sure seems like the preferences were driven by fashion more than practicality.
 
I think that @megasupermagnum is talking about the extension of the entry thimble that serves as a wear plate.

The wear plate on my Derringer Rifle was added to cover where the ramrod drill broke through.
Yes, the big extension, that looks to be soldered to that thimble. You can't miss it. On that rifle, it looks to be a part of the design, as indicated by it being a raised section, rather than an afterthought or fix.

@plmeek, there is no doubt in my mind that these guns are more about style than function. I've been a shooter for a number of years, and mainly shotguns where handling is everything. The very longest gun I currently own is an Ithaca Mag10, and it is a specialized gun for long range waterfowl hunting. It has a 32" barrel, and with the receiver likely has an overall length similar to a muzzleloader with say a 38" barrel. It is a LONG gun, it was tough to find a case for it. What it lacks in speed, it makes up for in a smooth swing.
Now back to the longrifle, being a rifle, swing shouldn't be a consideration in its handling. I never bought the poor gunpowder theory, even back when I knew everything. My 10" barrel TC scout pistol burns powder plenty effectively. There is definitely a loss of speed, but what I've found is black powder is not all that different than smokeless when it comes to barrel length. By about 20", you've got the majority of the speed you are going to get from an average charge of powder. A 30" barrel is faster, but it's not that much faster, maybe an extra 100 fps. I've not yet tried a 40"+ myself, but it looks like a 44" or so MIGHT get an extra 100 fps over a 30". It's not much to worry about when you consider the difference at 100 yards is far less than that. My 54 caliber TC scout pistol with 60 gr of powder shoots a PRB about 1050 fps. That same load in my 54 caliber Renegade (28"?) shoots about 1200 fps. And the unburned powder thing, I mean who cares? It's either going to burn in the first couple inches, or it isn't.

One theory I was recently reading on was that shooting competitions were much more prevalent than once thought. Ok, I can certainly see the longer barrel being an advantage in certain styles of shooting. I find the very fine sights that were common, odd if this is the case, but maybe they did not understand the human eye as well as we do now. If you lost the competition, at least you looked good doing it.

@Zonie, I'll ask about a lower profile grip rail. Actually on second look, the Sitting Fox golden age kit has that lower grip, and by the description says the rifle modeled after the late 1790's and into the 1800's. That might be a better way to go.
 
Well, I really didn't notice the larger extension at the rear of the lower thimble in the rifle that's shown in the link although I looked for it.

One of the features of Buck County rifles is that larger extension but usually the Buck county rifles have HUGE extensions at the rear of the lower thimble.

Here's a link to making one of these thimbles. It's worth a look even if you don't want to build one like it.

https://www.muzzleloadingforum.com/threads/making-a-buck-county-entry-pipoe.102814/
 
Yes, that's exactly what I'm looking for. So it's called a thimble extension? Maybe you clicked on the wrong link. This is the one, there's no way you missed it. Aspen Shade Ltd. - Current Inventory

I just went through and filled out the form for a quote for a golden age kit from Sitting Fox. I think that will be the best one for me. I asked for a 42" 54 caliber B profile swamped barrel. I may try making that extension. It's easy to over do brass to a gaudy level, but there is just something about that dulled, steampunk look I love if done right.
 
I just paid for the Sitting Fox golden age kit. I see a lot of reference to a C profile 54 caliber, but nothing with a B profile. The B is a full pound lighter than the C, and I don't intend to shoot a lot of standing offhand, so am I making the right choice here?

Specifically it is the Colerain 42" B profile 54 caliber.
 
When I put in the order, I had asked for a Rice barrel specifically, as right on their website they advertise a B profile 54 caliber. I also commented that if he preferred, I would consider another barrel. On the estimate I received, it says Colerain B profile 54 caliber. I'll ask again about that.

Unless there is an unseen reason I'm not aware of, I do know many prefer a lot of weight for standing shooting, I would rather have the thinner profile. Rice lists their 42" B 54 at 4.8 pounds. They also list their 42" C 54 at 5.6 pounds. Nearly a full pound savings for no extra cost.
 

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