Late model flintlock rifles

megasupermagnum · Aug 14, 2020

This is my first post here, thanks for having me. I'm hoping to get a little help with my first rifle build. I'm currently researching rifles, and I'm looking mainly at mountain man era. I'm looking for American rifles that would have been produced say 1800 to 1835. It seems there is a plethora of info on American rifles just up to and slightly past the revolutionary war. Then it seems info drops off significantly past 1800 until we start getting into the percussion era. I've looked into some trade rifles, and military rifles, particularly the Harpers Ferry 1803 model.
Looking at the American longrifle, it seems there isn't anything after what people now deem the golden age. It seems most kits anyway date their golden age longrifles to only 1800, usually earlier. Did longrifles fall quickly out of favor after the turn of the century, or were they continued to be produced in that general style?

LawrenceA · Aug 14, 2020

They continued.
You are looking at a time of great change in American firearms shifting from the Mountain Rifle to the Plains rifle during this period.
Look at the Southern Mountain rifles and Bedfords for a start.

Grenadier1758 · Aug 14, 2020

If you can find it, the "Trade Rifle Sketchbook" by Hanson covers those rifles built for the American Fur Trade from 1810 about to 1835. I found this copy on the Amazon site.

https://www.amazon.com/Trade-Rifle-...1RPZ39MHXAH&psc=1&refRID=FRC72X5QP1RPZ39MHXAH
I used the description of the Deringer flint trade rifle to build my Deringer replica rifle.

rusty · Aug 15, 2020

makers were JJ Henry, Gonter, Creamer, and others good luck on your search. I have a fairly close copy of a JJ Henry trade rifle Henry made the 3 different rifles during the fur trade era

rusty · Aug 15, 2020

now this is not written in stone but the general characteristics of a trade rifle would be 4 piece patch box, single trigger, and the stock would be a fairly plain piece of wood, a few years ago I was trying to put together a trade rifle I ended up with JJ Henry Late Lancaster my rifle is not an exact copy of the Henry rifle but close enough.

Art Caputo · Aug 15, 2020

While I understand there are no records for original samples of the Full Stock Hawken Flintlock, there appears to be evidence that they were produced, likely in the pre-percussion, early 1800’s. Having seen a few modern builds over the years, I find them quite appealing. The WB Selb is particularly nice, IMO.

https://www.hawkenrifles.com/fullflint.shtml

rich pierce · Aug 15, 2020

The book For Trade and Treaty is a great resource and not expensive at all. I designed and built this Deringer rifle from a rifle in that book.

A later Lancaster rifle would be great also.

nchawkeye · Aug 15, 2020

Even the Hawken boys were making rifles at that time...They didn't just move to St Louis and start making what we now call Hawken rifles, they were making full stock flintlocks from 1800-1820...Get a copy of Foxfire 5 and a copy of Bill Ivey's book on North Carolina Rifles...During that time, there was much less carving, calibers got smaller, barrels and stocks got thinner...Even the rifle David Crockett carried to the Alamo was made during that time period...Here are some typical rifles that were made in North Carolina during that time...These were the type rifles carried into the West during that time...

nchawkeye · Aug 15, 2020

And a few more...

megasupermagnum · Aug 17, 2020

Thank you guys, and I have since found some more sources online. It seems to me that the general style formed to more drop in the stock for a more curved look, as well as a more crescent butt, while keeping the long and slender form of the longrifle. I am seeing some examples with a slightly shorter barrel 34"-36". I would have to think barrels would be getting shorter during this period, as by 1840 the Hawken rifles are found with what, 28", 30" or so barrels? I will say that an aggressive crescent butt is a no-go for me. I am also pretty well set on a 54 caliber, which seems to be a popular caliber no matter the era I'm looking at.

Grenadier1758, I REALLY like that rifle, that is very much what I'm looking for. I'm seeing pictures of Derringer's with a crescent butt, but your flatter plate looks, and I'm sure shoots better. I love brass, but not over the top fancy brass. Yours has just the right look, almost steampunk. I'm going look into making one just like it.

Now as for the actual building, I have no real skills. I've done work to sidelocks over time, including inletting, but I've never built one before. I've looked into the Kibler kit, but they are not what I want. I am looking to learn to build one, but not from total scratch. I think one of the kits where the barrel channel is there, ramrod hole is drilled, things half inletted, etc. would suite me just fine. Does anyone know of a kit for a Derringer rifle?

One last question. I notice many of the rear sights on these are mounted way down the barrel, sometimes 12" or more. This seems counter intuitive, if the extremely long barrels were for increased sight radius. Is there any practical reason the sights are mounted so far down the barrel?

rich pierce · Aug 17, 2020

Sights further down the barrel are for old men’s eyes.

tenngun · Aug 17, 2020

megasupermagnum said:
Thank you guys, and I have since found some more sources online. It seems to me that the general style formed to more drop in the stock for a more curved look, as well as a more crescent butt, while keeping the long and slender form of the longrifle. I am seeing some examples with a slightly shorter barrel 34"-36". I would have to think barrels would be getting shorter during this period, as by 1840 the Hawken rifles are found with what, 28", 30" or so barrels? I will say that an aggressive crescent butt is a no-go for me. I am also pretty well set on a 54 caliber, which seems to be a popular caliber no matter the era I'm looking at.

Grenadier1758, I REALLY like that rifle, that is very much what I'm looking for. I'm seeing pictures of Derringer's with a crescent butt, but your flatter plate looks, and I'm sure shoots better. I love brass, but not over the top fancy brass. Yours has just the right look, almost steampunk. I'm going look into making one just like it.

Now as for the actual building, I have no real skills. I've done work to sidelocks over time, including inletting, but I've never built one before. I've looked into the Kibler kit, but they are not what I want. I am looking to learn to build one, but not from total scratch. I think one of the kits where the barrel channel is there, ramrod hole is drilled, things half inletted, etc. would suite me just fine. Does anyone know of a kit for a Derringer rifle?

One last question. I notice many of the rear sights on these are mounted way down the barrel, sometimes 12" or more. This seems counter intuitive, if the extremely long barrels were for increased sight radius. Is there any practical reason the sights are mounted so far down the barrel?

Look at Leman and Hawkens and you will notice the crescent butt. While Henry would do many flatter. Don’t be afraid of a crescent butt. You use a different hold but is very comfortable. Once you learn it, and it only takes an afternoon shooting to learn it, you will find it very comfortable.
These guns used a simple v in the rear sight. Older rear sights that were set closer to the breach had a wide v.
A sight farther down the barrel with the tiny v gave a finer sight picture in the limits of the system.
Not a Derringer but Chambers offers a Henry style flint trade rifle

ord sgt · Aug 17, 2020

You should check into the names of Tryon in Philadelphia and Vincent in Ohio. The Ohio school of stockers may be in the percussion era but Tryon and Leman made rifles for the trappers.

megasupermagnum · Aug 17, 2020

I see one from Tryon in Philadelphia. That is a neat rifle, it reminds me strongly of a Hawken, it has that abrupt turn before the wrist, rather than a smooth curve like the mountain rifles. I did find this, which seems to show that rifles of this era did exist without the crescent butt. Jacob Kuntz | Flintlock Longrifle | American, Philadelphia | The Met While I know many shoot them with success, they are not for me. I'm a big man, and my arm is bigger than the hook of any I've tried. They are also nearly impossible to shoot well from strange positions like sitting, while twisted up, or prone.

This will be a hunting gun for me, as all of mine are, so that is my main concern. I very rarely shoot off hand, I can only remember one deer I ever did, and that was with a shotgun from under 20 yards. I'm almost always sitting, sometimes braced against a tree. It's not something a crescent butt is good for.

I am not looking to copy exactly a particular rifle, not that I am against it. I am simply trying to keep things in the style of the early 1800's. It definitely seems that the curving stocks, were the style. I'd like to go with a simple brass patch box, nothing too ornate. I only live 20 miles from Track of the Wolf, so I've been leaning towards a kit from them. They will let you mix and match parts, and from what I've seen, their stocks are only partially done, so changes shouldn't be impossible. I'd like to end up with something very similar to the above Derringer trade rifle. What is the barrel length on that gun? What are the typical lengths seen on rifles of this era?

plmeek · Aug 17, 2020

megasupermagnum said:
Does anyone know of a kit for a Derringer rifle?

The closest thing to a kit for a Deringer rifle is the parts set that Jack Brooks sales for his Deringer trade rifle.

Derringer Indian Trade Rifle

Jack's parts set is not cheap because the barrel and pre-carve stock are custom made to match original rifle and the mounts are his personal castings.

The patch box has to be cut out of sheet brass with a jewelers saw and the hinge knuckles formed and mated together, so this is not necessarily a "kit" recommended for new builders. That said, Jack has 3 or 4 students in the Denver area that are currently building Deringer rifles in private lessons from him.

megasupermagnum said:
What are the typical lengths seen on rifles of this era?

I don't know of a source that would give the typical barrel length for the common rifle in the period you are interested in, but there are surviving records from the American Fur Company that show the barrel lengths they were ordering for their trade rifles that were destined for the Great Lakes Region and the West.

Below is a copy of an order that AFC placed with Christopher Gumph, Henry Gibbs, John Dreppard, and Jacob Fordney, all of Lancaster, Pennsylvania, for rifles to be delivered to St. Louis. The rifles were to have barrels from 42½ inches to 44 inches long and to carry a ball 32 to 40 to the pound or .50 to .54 caliber.

AFC Lancaster Gunsmith Rifle Order color.jpg

The rifles the American Fur Company ordered from J. J. Henry generally had barrel lengths of 40", 42", or 44".

megasupermagnum said:
I only live 20 miles from Track of the Wolf

Since you live so close to Track, go over and look at the Deringer rifle they have listed on their website for sale that was made by James Hanchett and see if you like it.

Derringer Trade Rifle, .50 caliber, 42" Green Mountain barrel, R.E. Davis flintlock, maple, brass, new, by James Hanchett - Track of the Wolf

Col. Batguano · Aug 18, 2020

I love the penmanship of the 1700's-1800's. It's a shame they don't teach that sort of artistic script writing any more in school.

Kansas Jake · Aug 18, 2020

Col. Batguano said:
I love the penmanship of the 1700's-1800's. It's a shame they don't teach that sort of artistic script writing any more in school.

Shoot, my grandkids aren’t even taught cursive and I don’t know if they can read it. It is a secret code for us old geezers.

dave_person · Aug 18, 2020

Hi,
This is a 1810-1820 English flintlock rifle.

Big man or small, they are the finest and best designed hunting rifles you can put to your shoulder.

dave

megasupermagnum · Aug 18, 2020

Col. Batguano said:
I love the penmanship of the 1700's-1800's. It's a shame they don't teach that sort of artistic script writing any more in school.

I'll turn 26 in a month. We spent plenty of time with different handwriting, especially cursive, even in other languages. That was just some small school in the middle of Minnesota, class of about 95 kids.

I also think it was the absolute biggest waste of time we ever spent, completely useless skill that would be better learned on our own or in college. I mean we got rid of all shop classes except robotics club, but we kept cursive. There is so much American history I wish they taught in public schools, and not just British vs colonies history. There needs to be more on the native american indian tribes, spanish, french, and how they related to each other. We got such a one sided view of our country.

Col. Batguano · Aug 19, 2020

My boys are of your generation that went to school in a Twin Cities suburb, and didn't get it at all. No shop classes either. That was replaced by computer literacy labs & such, which was more relevant for today's times I suppose. When I was in school we had the cursive practice in the 2nd-4th grades, and shop classes. Computers were still a ways off yet. Only NASA really had those.

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