Southern Rifle - South Carolina. Details/images/tips sought

Kibler. They can be built easy. Can be built hard. You can take the quality of material provided in the kit and spend a month on it. Or you can spend a year on it. What you won't end up with is a rifle with anything less than first rate materials. It makes a difference: not fussing with junk.

RB POWELL said:

Kibler. They can be built easy. Can be built hard. You can take the quality of material provided in the kit and spend a month on it. Or you can spend a year on it. What you won't end up with is a rifle with anything less than first rate materials. It makes a difference: not fussing with junk.

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I agree. I spent months on mine. Hamdmade nose cap, side plate, toe plate, handmade pipes, handmade sights, lock engraving.... Skies the limit.

Bob McBride said:

Jim’s SMR is based on the work of Joseph Whitson, a NC builder of about 1830. Here’s a pic of one I built (top) along with a bench copy of a Soddy Daisy rifle by Jack Duprey (middle). Very close in form and architecturally very typical of southern mountain rifles.
View attachment 39563.

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What Finnish was used on the kibler, and did you make that patch box or buy it. Great looking guns.

Troyfairweather said:

What Finnish was used on the kibler, and did you make that patch box or buy it. Great looking guns.

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Thanks. It’s all handmade. I didn’t make the patchbox cover as I wasn’t confident in my ability to make the 7 hinge box that I wanted. Jim Parker of Calvary Longrifles in GA made it for me. Finish was traditional Aqua Fortis, along with tannins to pop the curl, and Jim Chamber’s finish. Followed by Jim Kibler’s bone black to add dark patina to the low areas of the stock.

Bob Roller indicated on another forum he is no longer making locks for sale. Kibler locks are now CNC except for the cock and frizzen. He used to use Chambers locks, they were quite good. The new CNC ones are as precisely fitted and as well and designed as any ever produced by anyone. Yes, some the super high end locks of the past were pure art work. But as a mass produced lock Kiblers are as good as any of us will ever use.

Sartana said:

I am considering having a flintlock built. I want it to be a southern rifle in general style (so something 1790-1830). Specifically, I would like it to model many of the ideas of ones that were made in South Carolina or the immediate region. What are some of the best pictorial book selections out there? I see so many books and so many are so pricey. I would like to find one that really zeros in on this region, if such a thing exists. Also, if any of you have images that you would be willing to share, I would be thankful. I am not really interested in having a true bare bones, non-decorated piece. So inlay, patch box and engraving suggestions sought. Thank you!

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Sartana,

I would recommend that you search for images of rifles by Thomas Peden, a gunsmith in Greenville County, South Carolina in the early 1800's. Here are some images of one of his rifles from the 1820's, converted to percussion. The first image is a full length view:



I want to say up front that I learned of this builder from a thread on the ALR forum. Hear is a link: Thomas Peden Southern Mountain Rifle

The first post in that thread gave a pretty good written description of the rifle, and provided a link to an album of pictures, from which I "borrowed" the images shown here.

This next picture is of the left side of the buttstock. This rifle incorporates features most of us don't automatically associate with "Southern Mountain Rifles." The furniture is all brass on this rifle, for one thing, and while the general outline of the stock certainly looks southern, it has a beavertail cheekpiece. Good heavens! Also take a good look at the brass parts. The "stepped" tang on the buttplate is very unusual, and the triggerguard is pure elegance. The sideplate is a lot like the general type seen on many Tennessee rifles, but is larger and bolder.



The lock side view (below) gives a better look at the triggerguard, as well as the triggers. Look at the little spurs on the backs of the triggers... I've not seen that on any other rifle that I remember. If you wanted to duplicate this rifle, it would take a lot of custom work to make triggers, a guard, and a buttplate like these.



It's hard to say what the stock is made of. My overall impression is cherry, but the scrubbed area in front of the lock is quite pale. I have worked with cherry wood, and the raw, unfinished wood can be very pale, but this just looks a little "whiter" than cherry to me. I believe southern riflemakers may have been more willing than those in other areas to try stock woods other than the usual walnut, maple or cherry, such as applewood, butternut, pecan, or ash. I think this one may be cherry, though. The original Crockett longrifles from Tennessee were said to have had cherry stocks (as well as brass furniture), and Gregg Murray, who builds the "Crockett Longrifle" reproductions, uses cherry as stock wood.

Anyway, you said you were not really interested in a "bare bones" rifle, but while the Peden rifle in the photos has no fancy carving or inlay, its architecture and outline, and the understated elegance of its essential metal parts, make it a real beauty in my mind. Speaking only for myself, I would take a rifle like this one over a highly embellished piece any day. I do respect your interests, but to each his own.

Anyway, the gentleman who described this rifle on the ALR forum kindly put a whole album of pictures on Imgur. Take a gander at these: Thomas Peden Rifle

As a final suggestion, you may want to look up Don Bruton. He is a well-known riflemaker in South Carolina. Don's work is outstanding. I think he prefers to build in an earlier style than the timeframe you specified, but he is very well versed in the southern style.

Good luck! I hope you find what you seek.

Notchy Bob

Addendum

Dadgummit, Sartana, now you've gotten me interested in these South Carolina rifles, and I've spent a good part of my free time for the past couple of days looking them up, reading about them, and ogling pictures!

The first thing I would recommend is that you go to the ALR forum and read through this thread: South Carolina Longrifles ?

The information contained therein provides a good foundational understanding of what's out there. Follow the links, and Google the names and topics that interest you. Regarding books, I think James Whisker wrote one on the topic of gunsmiths of the Carolinas, and I believe Jerry Noble has written several volumes on southern guns. I don't have the specifics on these, however.

The Thomas Peden rifle discussed in my first post interested me very much. I found a photo of another one that is very similar:



It is very similar to the first Peden rifle, except this one has a back-action lock. Despite the 1820 date mentioned in the caption, I believe the back-action lock would suggest this rifle was originally percussion, and may have come from a later period. However, it is so similar to the other Peden rifle in so many respects that I am beginning to doubt that the other one was ever a flintlock rifle at all, but may have been an original percussion built around a recycled and converted flint lock. Just my opinion, for what it's worth.

You mentioned an interest in carving, inlays, and patchboxes. It is apparent the the South Carolina riflesmiths were quite capable of making very fine and ornate rifles. Here is an example by Patrick Hoy of Spartanburg County, circa 1815:



The two-piece buttplate and the the toeplate are made of bone! You can find a more complete description and more photos here: Patrick Hoy Longrifle

Another Spartanburg area builder was William Reid. There is a great post about him with a series of photographs of one of his rifles in the ALR archives: William Reid Longrifle

This next one reportedly belonged to Col. John Thomas of the South Carolina Militia in the Revolutionary War:



This rifle is said to have been built by James Robertson of Spartanburg County. This rifle was evidently captured by the British, taken to England, and refurbished by an English gunsmith some years later. I believe the rifle is still in a museum in Britain.

The next one was made by Andrew Walton of Charleston, circa 1814-1816. This one looks like a more typical "southern mountain rifle," but Charleston is at sea level!



For more information on the Walton rifle, see Andrew Walton Longrifle

From the limited research I have done so far, it seems there were plenty of gunsmiths plying their trade in the Palmetto State, especially in Charleston and the Spartanburg area. If you want a rifle with a South Carolina pedigree, whether plain or fancy, there are a number of them out there to inspire you.

Best regards,

Notchy Bob

Epic information sir! Thank you very much for taking the time to share. It is really appreciated.....

Notchy Bob said:

Addendum

Dadgummit, Sartana, now you've gotten me interested in these South Carolina rifles, and I've spent a good part of my free time for the past couple of days looking them up, reading about them, and ogling pictures!

The first thing I would recommend is that you go to the ALR forum and read through this thread: South Carolina Longrifles ?

The information contained therein provides a good foundational understanding of what's out there. Follow the links, and Google the names and topics that interest you. Regarding books, I think James Whisker wrote one on the topic of gunsmiths of the Carolinas, and I believe Jerry Noble has written several volumes on southern guns. I don't have the specifics on these, however.

The Thomas Peden rifle discussed in my first post interested me very much. I found a photo of another one that is very similar:

View attachment 39870

It is very similar to the first Peden rifle, except this one has a back-action lock. Despite the 1820 date mentioned in the caption, I believe the back-action lock would suggest this rifle was originally percussion, and may have come from a later period. However, it is so similar to the other Peden rifle in so many respects that I am beginning to doubt that the other one was ever a flintlock rifle at all, but may have been an original percussion built around a recycled and converted flint lock. Just my opinion, for what it's worth.

You mentioned an interest in carving, inlays, and patchboxes. It is apparent the the South Carolina riflesmiths were quite capable of making very fine and ornate rifles. Here is an example by Patrick Hoy of Spartanburg County, circa 1815:

View attachment 39871

The two-piece buttplate and the the toeplate are made of bone! You can find a more complete description and more photos here: Patrick Hoy Longrifle

Another Spartanburg area builder was William Reid. There is a great post about him with a series of photographs of one of his rifles in the ALR archives: William Reid Longrifle

This next one reportedly belonged to Col. John Thomas of the South Carolina Militia in the Revolutionary War:

View attachment 39872

This rifle is said to have been built by James Robertson of Spartanburg County. This rifle was evidently captured by the British, taken to England, and refurbished by an English gunsmith some years later. I believe the rifle is still in a museum in Britain.

The next one was made by Andrew Walton of Charleston, circa 1814-1816. This one looks like a more typical "southern mountain rifle," but Charleston is at sea level!

View attachment 39875

For more information on the Walton rifle, see Andrew Walton Longrifle

From the limited research I have done so far, it seems there were plenty of gunsmiths plying their trade in the Palmetto State, especially in Charleston and the Spartanburg area. If you want a rifle with a South Carolina pedigree, whether plain or fancy, there are a number of them out there to inspire you.

Best regards,

Notchy Bob

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Any place in the Low Country that doesn't hold water is a mountain

When I recently was inspired to build a flintlock long rifle, a friend recommended a Kibler or Chambers kit. I was awed by the rifles on their websites, but I balked at the prices. In the end, I bought a cheaper kit, but was seduced by beautiful wood I didn't deserve (as a brand new enthusiast), and including needed tools and supplies spent about as much as a Kibler. I immensely enjoyed the process, learned a lot, and have a decent rifle.... But I would have a better gun with a Kibler, and better lines to guide my next build from a stock blank. In the beginning, some of us are just anxious to have a nice gun to draw us to the woods. We have to grow into appreciation of the traditional historic fine points. I can't imagine a better start, if you don't have a ready master mentor hand, than with a Kibler or Chambers, in plain wood for economy if needed. Now that I have a gun, I take time with developed interest to read, watch and learn more. ( like so much relevant on this blog!)

Santana:
I just joined MLF; this is a D. T. Peden {Thomas' son} rifle on which I am doing some minor wood repair w/ animal glue. Made in Greeneville, SC, just before or just after the War. (Peden spent the war either as part of a rifle regiment at the start, or in the Confederate arms factory making ammunition, so, to my knowledge, he did not make any custom-order guns during that period.) Made for Robert McElveen, whom I found on the census roles for Greeneville County during that time.
Well-made gun, w/ Southern lines, but brass furniture. Interesting double-set trigger, which makes people think these guns have worn or broken locks that will only set at half-cock. Back-action lock, which the Peden's and D. T. 's cousin D. Boyd often used.

Cvkotvkse said:

Santana:
I just joined MLF; this is a D. T. Peden {Thomas' son} rifle on which I am doing some minor wood repair w/ animal glue. Made in Greeneville, SC, just before or just after the War. (Peden spent the war either as part of a rifle regiment at the start, or in the Confederate arms factory making ammunition, so, to my knowledge, he did not make any custom-order guns during that period.) Made for Robert McElveen, whom I found on the census roles for Greeneville County during that time.
Well-made gun, w/ Southern lines, but brass furniture. Interesting double-set trigger, which makes people think these guns have worn or broken locks that will only set at half-cock. Back-action lock, which the Peden's and D. T. 's cousin D. Boyd often used.View attachment 57510View attachment 57511View attachment 57512View attachment 57514View attachment 57515

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Welcome to the forum, and thanks for the photos!

Does this Peden longrifle have a hooked breech? The appearance of a "joint" aft of the bolster in the close-up (photo #4) suggests a hooked breech. I would consider that most unusual for a longrifle, but Mr. Peden clearly marched to his own drummer.

Best regards,

Notchy Bob

Notchy Bob said:

Welcome to the forum, and thanks for the photos!

Does this Peden longrifle have a hooked breech? The appearance of a "joint" aft of the bolster in the close-up (photo #4) suggests a hooked breech. I would consider that most unusual for a longrifle, but Mr. Peden clearly marched to his own drummer.

Best regards,

Notchy Bob

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Yes, it does.

I think the plain southern region rifles are simple elegance in their own right, the slim profiles and lack of embellishment adds to their beauty. If Kibler would ever make a S.M.R. in left hand I would jump on it like a chicken on a June bug. Lets see 40 cal. 40-42 inch barrel (slim profile)1/66 round bottom rifling, cherry stock, iron mounts. (I like a iron mounted rifle) single trigger. One can only whish

Cvkotvkse said:

Santana:
I just joined MLF; this is a D. T. Peden {Thomas' son} rifle on which I am doing some minor wood repair w/ animal glue. Made in Greeneville, SC, just before or just after the War. (Peden spent the war either as part of a rifle regiment at the start, or in the Confederate arms factory making ammunition, so, to my knowledge, he did not make any custom-order guns during that period.) Made for Robert McElveen, whom I found on the census roles for Greeneville County during that time.
Well-made gun, w/ Southern lines, but brass furniture. Interesting double-set trigger, which makes people think these guns have worn or broken locks that will only set at half-cock. Back-action lock, which the Peden's and D. T. 's cousin D. Boyd often used.View attachment 57510View attachment 57511View attachment 57512View attachment 57514View attachment 57515

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any chance you still have this rifle and if so, is it for sale?

cvkotvkse, any chance you still have this DT peden rifle? if so, is it for sale?

luckyned said:

cvkotvkse, any chance you still have this DT peden rifle? if so, is it for sale?

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I haven't actually put it on the market yet... procured it from owner after completing the wood repair, and doing the research on the rifle, and on the Peden family. I have been trying to get a good evaluation of it from dealers who specialize in Southern firearms, but Peden rifles so seldomly end up for sale or auction that getting any precedence for assessment has made that difficult. I will PM you w/ further details.

I'm another fan of iron mounted SMR or whatever one wants to call them. Mine has a straight 3/4" X .36 caliber barrel and a plain maple stock. I love this little rifle which come in at a smidge over 6 lbs.

https://www.aspenshadeltd.com/inventory_iron.html
This was the template for my Virginia rifle. It is plain Jane.