Hey quick question I couldn’t find an answer for on google; does the Pedersoli Brown Bess have a patent breech like on the Pedersoli Indian trade gun?
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Pedersoli Bess touch hole
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No, Pedersoli drills their vent holes right ahead of the breech plug which makes the gun harder to clean while shooting. This is why so many install vent liners in the pederosli muskets.
The correct way is to drill into the very front of the breech plug and then remove the plug and file out a small gap or groove.
The correct way is to drill into the very front of the breech plug and then remove the plug and file out a small gap or groove.
Personally, I totally disagree with the idea of making any groove in the outer area of the face of a breech plug.
That face in most well made rifles and shotguns bears against a shoulder in the barrel where the breech plug threads end and the bore begins, to form a gas tight seal. If there is any sort of groove in the outer area of the plug, high pressure gasses will blow back thru the threads creating a leak which deposits black powder fouling in them. The fouling can lead to corrosion of the threads.
Notice in the sketch below, the face of the breech plug is tightly sealing the shoulder where the bore ends.
This is the correct way to create a breech.
That face in most well made rifles and shotguns bears against a shoulder in the barrel where the breech plug threads end and the bore begins, to form a gas tight seal. If there is any sort of groove in the outer area of the plug, high pressure gasses will blow back thru the threads creating a leak which deposits black powder fouling in them. The fouling can lead to corrosion of the threads.
Notice in the sketch below, the face of the breech plug is tightly sealing the shoulder where the bore ends.
This is the correct way to create a breech.
I never found my Bess difficult to clean back when I was shooting it regularly. If I were to install a vent liner how would it make cleaning easier (unless I removed it)?
Zonie I'm with you on touchhole location.
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My Pedersoli Charleville tends to miss fire if I don’t pick it out after 5-6 shots, its not a terrible inconvience. Compared to my Navy Arms Charleville which has a touch hole that is drilled slightly lower and into the face of the breech plug, it never has to be cleaned for ignition Until after I’m done shooting.
I eventually plan on putting a liner on the pedersoli Charleville.
Same here. No issues cleaning.
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With my Pedersoli Charleville, the drilled touch hole was placed too low in relation to the pan. I took the barrel to a machine shop and asked them to redrill the hole a little higher and tap it for a 1/4"x28 tpi liner. The machinist put it on a mill and had the work done in 10 minutes. Nice work and did the job free of charge. Smoothie goes boom nicely now.
Nothing wrong with a liner, I think it speeds shot time a bit. It’s not completely incorrect but not seen often in the old days. I have a liner in all the guns I currently own. Howsomever what size is your touch hole. Going up just a -/64 or -32 may cure your problem
I have four flintlock smoothbores: a Caywood NW Gun in 24 gauge, a NSW Northwest Gun in 20 gauge, a Pedersoli Charleville, and a 20 gauge fowling piece by Jackie Brown. None have liners, and cleaning, from my perspective, is easier without the liner. Ignition is great with all four. The two NW Guns were both fine out of the box. The other two had ignition problems related to the locks. With the locks tuned up, they work well, also.
I had a flintlock rifle with a 7/8" x .50 caliber barrel. I requested no vent liner, but the builder put one in anyway, assuring me I would not be happy without it. Ignition was good, but the liner protruded so far into the bore you could not get a jag, a brush, or a breech face scraper past it. It created a fouling trap, which was very difficult to clean. Oddly enough, I ordered a fusil de chasse from another builder who did the same thing... Put in a vent liner when I specifically requested not having one, reasoning that I "wouldn't be happy without it."
I can see the advantage of a vent liner coned on the inside for a rifle with a very thick barrel wall at the breech, to reduce the length of the flash channel, but I think liners in general are vastly overrated. For most smoothbores, as well as rifles that aren't too thick at the breech, the placement of the vent relative to the pan and the diameter of the orifice are the critical issues. If these are correct, ignition should not suffer. I agree with Zonie's comments regarding the position of the touchhole relative to the breech face, and avoidance of the breech plug threads.
In my experience with flintlocks, which may not be as extensive as for some folks here, you kind of expect to pick the touchhole now and then. This is why the well armed militiaman of the 18th century was required to have a "pick wire." I haven't found that the presence or absence of a touch hole liner makes much difference, and I've met a few fellows who routinely pick the vent prior to every shot.
I've heard of touch holes back in the day being "brushed with platinum" to resist burnout, and I've heard of vents being closed with a plug of some sort and then re-drilled. There are also accounts of rifles being re-breeched, likely involving cutting a couple of inches off at the breech and moving the barrel back. I've also heard rumors of a hand held tool of some sort, employed by some rifle makers, which could cone a vent from the inside. So, the old timers worked out ways of managing touchhole or vent problems. I don't doubt that vent liners of some sort may have existed back in the Shining Times, but I don't think they were common, and while I fully understand the utility of a vent liner in some situations, I think they are generally over used and over rated today.
Just my opinion, respectfully submitted.
Best regards,
Notchy Bob
I had a flintlock rifle with a 7/8" x .50 caliber barrel. I requested no vent liner, but the builder put one in anyway, assuring me I would not be happy without it. Ignition was good, but the liner protruded so far into the bore you could not get a jag, a brush, or a breech face scraper past it. It created a fouling trap, which was very difficult to clean. Oddly enough, I ordered a fusil de chasse from another builder who did the same thing... Put in a vent liner when I specifically requested not having one, reasoning that I "wouldn't be happy without it."
I can see the advantage of a vent liner coned on the inside for a rifle with a very thick barrel wall at the breech, to reduce the length of the flash channel, but I think liners in general are vastly overrated. For most smoothbores, as well as rifles that aren't too thick at the breech, the placement of the vent relative to the pan and the diameter of the orifice are the critical issues. If these are correct, ignition should not suffer. I agree with Zonie's comments regarding the position of the touchhole relative to the breech face, and avoidance of the breech plug threads.
In my experience with flintlocks, which may not be as extensive as for some folks here, you kind of expect to pick the touchhole now and then. This is why the well armed militiaman of the 18th century was required to have a "pick wire." I haven't found that the presence or absence of a touch hole liner makes much difference, and I've met a few fellows who routinely pick the vent prior to every shot.
I've heard of touch holes back in the day being "brushed with platinum" to resist burnout, and I've heard of vents being closed with a plug of some sort and then re-drilled. There are also accounts of rifles being re-breeched, likely involving cutting a couple of inches off at the breech and moving the barrel back. I've also heard rumors of a hand held tool of some sort, employed by some rifle makers, which could cone a vent from the inside. So, the old timers worked out ways of managing touchhole or vent problems. I don't doubt that vent liners of some sort may have existed back in the Shining Times, but I don't think they were common, and while I fully understand the utility of a vent liner in some situations, I think they are generally over used and over rated today.
Just my opinion, respectfully submitted.
Best regards,
Notchy Bob
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I agree with lots of your comments, but knotching the vent hole into the face of the breech plug is no risk to a properly fitted breech plug. If the breech plug isn’t fitted correctly it presents a variety of issues.
The French Military drilled their touch holes on a angle into the face of the breech plug, about 200,000 model 1766 and 1777 and 1777 ANN XI muskets were made this way until the French started using percussion muskets.
Same thing with Brown Bess muskets.
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In the end, a Vent liner helps more with cleaning than quicker ignition, its a definite benefit for cleaning the gun.
I appreciate the comment, and I understand how this might be true with a slotted or Allen-head vent liner, which could be removed to allow thorough flushing of the breech during cleaning. However, my sole experience with a White Lightnin' vent liner was not a happy one. As mentioned above, this non-removable* vent liner was installed in a slim, 7/8" x .50 caliber barrel. It protruded so far into the bore as to prevent access to the bottom end of the bore with any normal cleaning apparatus. Not only did it make cleaning the breech a challenge, but it actually created a fouling trap, with an abnormal accumulation of carbon. Getting that clean was a major pain!
I was advised once that the gunsmith should have radiused the protruding part of the liner to match the contour of the bore... But he didn't. Also, I had some concern regarding the fact that the barrel wall was only 0.1875" thick, and the outer part of the White Lightnin' liner was countersunk. There couldn't have been many threads holding it in, which raised some concerns about safety.
Regarding cleaning, my guns with plain, drilled touchholes clean up easily. Water jets easily in and out of the touchhole with the plunger action of a patch on a properly fitted jag, and a patch on the same jag goes all the way to the breech face to dry or oil the bore.
Again, I appreciate the comments, and the discussion. I think we may just be touching different parts of the elephant. However, it is good to hear other perspectives, and there can be more than one "correct" opinion.
"Give me that old-time ignition, it's good enough for me."
Best regards,
Notchy Bob
*The White Lightnin' vent liner can be removed with an Easy-Out, if needed, but would likely need to be replaced with a whole new one. It is not intended to be removed for routine cleaning.
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I just don't worry about cleaning ....so what if you can't get that little bit of crud out. Do we bother getting every spec of crud from under our car fenders? Nope!
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When I apprenticed under the late ML gunsmith Leon Miller, he often ran a percussion drum partially into the breech plug to achieve more strength in that area than the wall of the barrel provided. This was mostly on shotgun barrels, which he turned from pre-made old/new stock barrel blanks obtained from Numrich and others. He always test fired the guns himself and checked for any breech gas leakage. I never saw him find a failure. Also, the Caywoods in Berryville, Arkansas used to would not install a vent liner in a flintlock.
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No problems here cleaning a Pedersoli trade gun...its easier than cleaning my 50 caliber Pedersoli Ky gun.
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My Sitting Fox, NW Trade Gun doesn’t have a liner.
Ignition is extremely fast. Cleaning is not a problem.
Haven’t experienced problems with my Pedersoli Bess neither.
Respectfully, Cowboy
Ignition is extremely fast. Cleaning is not a problem.
Haven’t experienced problems with my Pedersoli Bess neither.
Respectfully, Cowboy
I would say it was improperly installed it should be cut off clean in the barrel. I think that tru not just for white lightning but any liner a making one fit ain’t too hard.
I’m not a fan of pulling THL for cleaning. At the most only an emergency. The last THL I removed was thirty yeas ago. My guns clean just fine. Like wise I’ve dry balled and got the ball out via powder loaded through the touch hole. Though a ball screw is faster.
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Cleaning your Brown Bess shouldn’t be a problem, tape the vent and flood the barrel. I use scotch bright steel wool on the end of worm, then dry it out with a magic eraser on the end of the worm. Snake it for drying, and that’s it. Grease patch ..... wipe down the pan section, polish off all powder residue. I’ve never had an issue with rust.
I only do DEEP cleans so often, I just removed the breech plugs on all my guns after 5 years, and cleaned the breeches really good and used anti seize lube after reinstalling.
Vent liners can be removed but I don’t do that very often, hardly ever only if the vent liner is having some type of problem.
I only do DEEP cleans so often, I just removed the breech plugs on all my guns after 5 years, and cleaned the breeches really good and used anti seize lube after reinstalling.
Vent liners can be removed but I don’t do that very often, hardly ever only if the vent liner is having some type of problem.
