Paper cartridges in .44 1851 pietta navy brass

I have a few questions regarding paper cartridges and an 1851 navy brass frame revolver.



first is it possible?
Is it possible in a brass frame using light loads?

is it possible to make a paper cartridge with a minimum load in .44?

do you use a dry or lubed wad Or one at all in making the cartridges?

Can I use conical bullets? I heard the pietta ram is too flat for conical without modifications

eventually I will buy a cowboy cartridge gun steel framed and cylinder meant for black powder loaded brass.

for now I am trying to understand what the gun is capable of.

You can make it way easier by just pouring about 15- 20gr of 3f powder in each chamber and ram a .454 round ball on top of it. Cap it and shoot. You can adjust powder charge and add fillers on top of the powder if you’re looking for best accuracy. I’ve never had luck with conicals being any more accurate than round balls. Don’t overthink it.

It is recommended to use light loads in a brass framed revolver, especially if you have a 44 as the firing will put more stress on the brass frame.

You can use paper cartridges. The advantage is that you already have the powder and ball wrapped up in one package. Use the oversized 0.454" ball. Use cigarette paper or the thin papers used for hair curlers from the beauty salons.

When loading, tear the paper cartridge to pour the powder in the chamber then load the still wrapped ball to rammed in place. The paper will act as filler for the light loads and help with providing a feel for setting the ball on the powder. You shouldn't need a separate over powder wad. You can use a conical bullet although for some revolvers, a conical doesn't fit well through the loading cut out. I don't have experience with conical bullets in a Pietta but others on this Forum have.

Grenadier1758 said:

It is recommended to use light loads in a brass framed revolver, especially if you have a 44 as the firing will put more stress on the brass frame.

You can use paper cartridges. The advantage is that you already have the powder and ball wrapped up in one package. Use the oversized 0.454" ball. Use cigarette paper or the thin papers used for hair curlers from the beauty salons.

When loading, tear the paper cartridge to pour the powder in the chamber then load the still wrapped ball to rammed in place. The paper will act as filler for the light loads and help with providing a feel for setting the ball on the powder. You shouldn't need a separate over powder wad. You can use a conical bullet although for some revolvers, a conical doesn't fit well through the loading cut out. I don't have experience with conical bullets in a Pietta but others on this Forum have.

Click to expand...

excellent! Thank very much for explaining that for me. I feel confident now I’m gonna start out simple with round balls and 777 powder. I’m also going to try to twist up some paper cowboy cartridges this is going to be cool!

now for that .454 ball what is the minimum amount of triple seven I could get away with using?

99% of the time I will be using this for punching holes in paper.

15 grain by volume too little? Or can I go lower?

Thanks again you’ve been very helpful!

I make paper cartridges for a 44 caliber 1858. I use hair curling paper and just shove the whole cartrige into the cylinder. The papers are very thin and the cap blows right through them. I have never had a misfire as long as I remember to cap the nipples. I do check the cylinder for paper remnants before reloading but there is seldom anything left. Here is a youtube of the method I use.

russellshaffer said:

I make paper cartridges for a 44 caliber 1858. I use hair curling paper and just shove the whole cartrige into the cylinder. The papers are very thin and the cap blows right through them. I have never had a misfire as long as I remember to cap the nipples. I do check the cylinder for paper remnants before reloading but there is seldom anything left. Here is a youtube of the method I use.

Click to expand...

awesome video very informative thank you I got home and finally had a chance to watch it my favorite part is how I the bullet seats into the wad.

Definitely a super cool easy thing to do while watching TV getting ready for the Range!

I just finished re-reading the chapter in Elmer Keith's book, Six Guns on cap and ball revolvers. He talked about using paper cartridges and he said his preferred way was to pour powder directly from the flask into the chambers.

Gabrielp said:

I have a few questions regarding paper cartridges and an 1851 navy brass frame revolver.

View attachment 38641

first is it possible?
Is it possible in a brass frame using light loads?

is it possible to make a paper cartridge with a minimum load in .44?

do you use a dry or lubed wad Or one at all in making the cartridges?

Can I use conical bullets? I heard the pietta ram is too flat for conical without modifications

eventually I will buy a cowboy cartridge gun steel framed and cylinder meant for black powder loaded brass.

for now I am trying to understand what the gun is capable of.

Click to expand...

Yes, it is very possible. I recommend a .457 ball as well. I have made and shot 100's of hair curling paper cartridges. I do not have to open the cartridge and I have 100% ignition, every signal time. There really fun to shoot and fun to make the paper cartridge's. I include a lubed wad over my powder in my cartridges. The lube does bleach the paper a little yellow after time, but I still have 100% ignition and same velocity, which tells me the lube had not affected the powder charge. I wrap 6 into individual paper wrappings (like in the war) and I have a wooden box that holds 6 (period correct as well). Enjoy! Don't get discouraged with your first try. Oh yea, they need not be tapered. Just use a dowel rod that slides into chamber, 7/16 I believe. They require a little force to push in, but they go in. I trust my life on my cartridge's every time I go to town. You need to check out "Onivore's" Utube video.

There are many here that use paper cartridges. When i have the time i load up 50 cartridges in a 45 cal ammo box. Then i am good to go when the earge strikes me.
DL

I had to rub my dowel with parafin to keep the rolled paper from sticking.

FishDFly said:

I just finished re-reading the chapter in Elmer Keith's book, Six Guns on cap and ball revolvers. He talked about using paper cartridges and he said his preferred way was to pour powder directly from the flask into the chambers.

Click to expand...

Please be aware the some gun clubs/ranges you may visit, as well as the MLAIC [International] and MLAGB [UK only] do not permit direct loading from the powder flask into the chamber on safety grounds. A case if 'just in case there's an ember remaining in the chamber into which you are pouring a load of powder whilst hold another half-pound in your hand'.

It might get noisy and painful, and leave you with no future choice about which finger to use to pick your nose henceforth.

I'm not sure how the N-SSA and the MLRA view direct loading either.

Of course, what YOU do is entirely up to you, especially on your own backyard range. I'd be tempted to go with whatever method is used by THE man hisself, Mike Beliveau [duellist1954 on Youtube]. Me, I make and use paper cartridges that go entirely into the chamber.

Desperate Lee said:

There are many here that use paper cartridges. When i have the time i load up 50 cartridges in a 45 cal ammo box. Then i am good to go when the earge strikes me.
DL

Click to expand...

Do you tear off the twisted end or just seat it as is? The caps will burn thru the paper? Also do you put grease over each cylinder? Thanks ,
Kevin

Kevin
First i never grease over the cylinders. Thats just too darn messy. The butt end near the nipple is just a single layer of perm paper. Never had one to fail not burning thru. As far as the tails go i usually clip them off before i do range time. I use Hornady .454 pure lead .44 cal balls in all my 44 revolvers. When i press the cartridge down in to cylinder with ram head i can feel the cartridge rupture sometimes. There may be a little paper left on rammer sometimes but not a big deal. Sometimes there is a little paper left in cylinder and again no big deal. I carry a small dental pick in my box. Some say this is too slow, WEELLLL, its not like i got some bad guys trying to blow me away. All i got is a paper target flipping me off saying " Bet you can't hit me again". Hell, "I'll take that bet".
DL

You are correct ThreeCrows, round balls are lighter and easier to load. Now i do load conicals in my Bealls '58 revolvers. 200 grn Hornady .452 SWC lead bullets. I taper the end so they load easier. However, 99% of the time it is roundball.
DL

The Pietta will have to modified if you want to load conicals. I worked on mine.

The ram has a strange pattern in it that kisses an imprint into my meplats. I’ll be using an epoxy to modify the ram face.

As I’ve all too often read that a brass frame should be kept to 20-25 grns of powder, and that typically with a ball, I’d think you’d need to potentially reduce the T7 charge for that since it’s more energetic than most BP which people are familiar with, but an even further reduction if using conicals as this increases the pressures too. Honestly I’d skip conicals and/or go to 2F powder.

My paper cartridges are simple and have the twisty tail at the base. Never once have I had a failure to fire or delay. And it often leaves little paper shards in a couple of chambers, which didn’t seem to matter when I tried continuing without removing them, though I never tried more than 3 cylinders. I use American Spirits cigarette papers.

Oh, and my 2013 NMA came with a 1:16” twist and not the slow 1:30” and I’ve found my two bullets (170 and 195 grn) shoot just as accurately as a ball (I use .457” also, but I eventually had it reamed to .449”):

TFoley said:

Please be aware the some gun clubs/ranges you may visit, as well as the MLAIC [International] and MLAGB [UK only] do not permit direct loading from the powder flask into the chamber on safety grounds. A case if 'just in case there's an ember remaining in the chamber into which you are pouring a load of powder whilst hold another half-pound in your hand'.

It might get noisy and painful, and leave you with no future choice about which finger to use to pick your nose henceforth.

I'm not sure how the N-SSA and the MLRA view direct loading either.

Of course, what YOU do is entirely up to you, especially on your own backyard range. I'd be tempted to go with whatever method is used by THE man hisself, Mike Beliveau [duellist1954 on Youtube]. Me, I make and use paper cartridges that go entirely into the chamber.

Click to expand...

Your right, Mike Beliveau is the MAN.

ThreeCrows said:

Do an internet search for "Making paper cartridges for percussion revolvers: and you will turn up more than a couple of ways to do it. Most people do not use the twisted type end but glue on a round or even square end to finish the the "envelope" made of the same paper. Besides the cigerette and hair curler papers some use nitrited coffee filter paper which makes a sturdier cartridge. So check out the videos online also look at the duelist1954 videos as he shows how to modify the rammer and modify the side of the barrel for conical bullets. I think I would stick with round balls an they are lighter and would put less stress on the brass frame.
ThreeCrows

Click to expand...

I agrre, stick with the round balls with the brass frame. There more accurate as well.

Hawk78 said:

I agrre, stick with the round balls with the brass frame. There more accurate as well.

Click to expand...

Maybe if it has the slower twist, but I don’t think they’ve made models with that in quite some time, though I can’t say I know they don’t make any models at all with the slower twist rate.

My pistol shoots all projectiles equally compared to a ball. 3.5-4” groups at 15 yds shooting offhand all day long. If there’s a difference it’s negligible unlike what I’ve read concerning the slow twists.

rodwha
Both my ASP Bealls '58 Remington's cylinders pin .449 to .450 and shoot my .452 conicals very well.
DL