Period knives and Tomahawks

nightwolf1974 · Aug 1, 2020

Looking into joining a local re-enactment group. They are mainly focused on The French and Indian War, but some of them actually get into The American Civil War re-enactment too.

What Knives and Hawks would be proper for militia in The French and Indian War?
And what Knives and Hawks would be used by a Southern Volunteer in the Civil War?

Brokennock · Aug 2, 2020

nightwolf1974 said:
Looking into joining a local re-enactment group. They are mainly focused on The French and Indian War, but some of them actually get into The American Civil War re-enactment too.

What Knives and Hawks would be proper for militia in The French and Indian War?
And what Knives and Hawks would be used by a Southern Volunteer in the Civil War?

Can't speak to the civil war.

For the F.&I. period, English made trade knives were imported by the barrel full. English made scalpers also. There is little to no evidence of local blacksmith made knives being common. Imports were many, well made, and cheap. Blades tend to be large, 6 to 10 inches. Spine on English knives tend to be straight from scales to tip or with a slightly upswept tip. Handles of box wood are plain looking but very common. Red handled scalpers are mentioned for trade, thought to be one of the South American hardwoods imported to England, some evidence for African hardwoods as well, including ebony. Oddly, though England was importing exotic hardwoods, and using them for knife handles among other things, they don't seem to have been importing our maple.

A common chefs, or butcher knife is pretty much right.

There are countless pages of debate here on this subject. They include a lot of good information, as well as a lot of unsupported conjecture.

1st rule (or maybe should be) of accurate historical gear choice, never count on the vendor to do your research for you. There are some makers who sell their wares that try to be as accurate and true to originals as possible, Wick Ellerbe (you can find posts by him on this forum) and Ken Hamilton immediately come to mind. Many others come close. But a lot just settle for "old timey looking," and conjecture to justify it. Mass vendors are even more guilty, in general, often settling for a balance between, cost/price, historical accuracy, and what sells well.

tenngun · Aug 2, 2020

Axe heads in generally modern style started to be seen by the time of the revolution. Though ‘hawk’ heads were in trade up through the nineteenth century.
Russel’s Fire arms traps and tools of the mountain men devoted about a third of his book to axes. Who’da’thunk.
We all like fancy knifes easy on the eyes. Most were very plain. That is not to say men did not add new handles. And there was more then one fancy knifes, but think plain as a bases.
The Fort Miags axe sold in many ML houses is a fitting axe, but not something that you can throw easily, and we likes our games.

Dale Lilly · Sep 11, 2020

Here are two knives that are quite old but not PC/HC I am sure. However they attract attention when carried. The sheaths are my make from buffalo. I see similar sheaths in 1800s paintings [Miller]. Posted before in another thread but fit here best. Polecat

Notchy Bob · Sep 12, 2020

Brokennock mentioned English scalping knives. Here are two, made by Wick Ellerbe (who posts as LRB on this forum):

Wick took the picture. The top knife has a boxwood handle. Boxwood is hard to find now, but it was used a lot in hafting trade knives. It is tough and dimensionally stable, and an excellent choice for tool handles. The lower one is hafted with pernambuco, which is also pretty hard to get. However, this is the preferred wood for violin bows, and a buddy of mine is an archetier, a violin bow maker, and he gave me some of his scrap, from wood he had bought many years ago. I think pernambuco is now protected under CITES regulations. Anyway, I sent a couple of pieces of it to Wick when I ordered the knife, and requested that he use if for hafting my scalper. When the knife was complete, Wick sent me this photo, with the boxwood knife for comparison. I liked both of them, and he was kind enough to let me buy the boxwood knife along with the one I had ordered.

Pernambuco is naturally red, and was in fact used for making red dye in colonial times. It is a South American tropical hardwood, also known as "brazilwood" (pronounced like "BRAZZLE wood" in the old days). The country of Brazil was named for the wood, rather than vice versa. The wood is very dense and tough. You see occasional references to "red handled scalpers" in the literature, and I believe it is likely that these were hafted with some of the tropical hardwoods that are naturally red, although the only reference I have seen that specifically named "brazilwood" as a knife handle material was by Edwin Thompson Denig in the 1850's.

Best regards,

Notchy Bob

Brokennock · Sep 16, 2020

Notchy Bob said:
Brokennock mentioned English scalping knives. Here are two, made by Wick Ellerbe (who posts as LRB on this forum):

View attachment 42914

Wick took the picture. The top knife has a boxwood handle. Boxwood is hard to find now, but it was used a lot in hafting trade knives. It is tough and dimensionally stable, and an excellent choice for tool handles. The lower one is hafted with pernambuco, which is also pretty hard to get. However, this is the preferred wood for violin bows, and a buddy of mine is an archetier, a violin bow maker, and he gave me some of his scrap, from wood he had bought many years ago. I think pernambuco is now protected under CITES regulations. Anyway, I sent a couple of pieces of it to Wick when I ordered the knife, and requested that he use if for hafting my scalper. When the knife was complete, Wick sent me this photo, with the boxwood knife for comparison. I liked both of them, and he was kind enough to let me buy the boxwood knife along with the one I had ordered.

Pernambuco is naturally red, and was in fact used for making red dye in colonial times. It is a South American tropical hardwood, also known as "brazilwood" (pronounced like "BRAZZLE wood" in the old days). The country of Brazil was named for the wood, rather than vice versa. The wood is very dense and tough. You see occasional references to "red handled scalpers" in the literature, and I believe it is likely that these were hafted with some of the tropical hardwoods that are naturally red, although the only reference I have seen that specifically named "brazilwood" as a knife handle material was by Edwin Thompson Denig in the 1850's.

Best regards,

Notchy Bob

No fair you owning 2 of Wick's knives and I don't (and probably will never get to) own one. Lol.
I reference his work all the time. If I need and example of period knives done right, pics of his work are where I turn.

Those are both beautiful.

Stophel · Sep 17, 2020

For a 1750's tomahawk, go with the standard, wrap-eye, poll-less tomahawk. If the bit is flared upward, grind it down, so the whole head is flat all across the top. These are found in huge numbers in known 18th century archaeological sites. Almost to the exclusion of all others, at least in "belt" size. Larger felling axe heads will have polls, and "ears". At this point in time, longer bits, shorter polls. By the end of the 18th century, you begin to see longer polls, and shorter bits. And some resemble "Jersey" or "Kentucky-Baltimore" pattern axe heads. But again, these aren't belt axes.

I am of the strong opinion that the so-called Ft. Meigs type tiny, tiny axe heads are just not 18th century. Certainly not 1750's. Much as I love them, I just don't see them as being that early. I believe the majority of existing old examples are late 19th-early 20th century (actually, I KNOW that many examples are). I THINK that the small "bag axes" MIGHT date as far back as, say, 1820, but that may be pushing it.

kje54 · Sep 18, 2020

Stophel said:
For a 1750's tomahawk, go with the standard, wrap-eye, poll-less tomahawk. If the bit is flared upward, grind it down, so the whole head is flat all across the top. These are found in huge numbers in known 18th century archaeological sites. Almost to the exclusion of all others, at least in "belt" size. Larger felling axe heads will have polls, and "ears". At this point in time, longer bits, shorter polls. By the end of the 18th century, you begin to see longer polls, and shorter bits. And some resemble "Jersey" or "Kentucky-Baltimore" pattern axe heads. But again, these aren't belt axes.

I am of the strong opinion that the so-called Ft. Meigs type tiny, tiny axe heads are just not 18th century. Certainly not 1750's. Much as I love them, I just don't see them as being that early. I believe the majority of existing old examples are late 19th-early 20th century (actually, I KNOW that many examples are). I THINK that the small "bag axes" MIGHT date as far back as, say, 1820, but that may be pushing it.

Since you seem to know a bit about hawks/axes how authentic are the brass pipe hawks? I've read that they were common trade goods early 18th century.

markh · Sep 18, 2020

In the English trade context brass headed pipe tomahawks don’t really appear in large numbers until the around 1780. They are on Indian Department inventories at both Michilimackinac and Niagara at that point. There are a couple very rare examples before the 4th quarter of the 18th c.

markh · Sep 18, 2020

This is an example of an English brass head trade tomahawk. These have been found at late 18th c and early 19th c sites all around the Great Lakes

kje54 · Sep 18, 2020

markh said:
In the English trade context brass headed pipe tomahawks don’t really appear in large numbers until the around 1780. They are on Indian Department inventories at both Michilimackinac and Niagara at that point. There are a couple very rare examples before the 4th quarter of the 18th c.

What about French?

Stophel · Sep 18, 2020

I don't know of any similar French examples. Of course, trade with the French came to a halt after Britain took over Canada.

The pipe tomahawks were, I think, primarily intended for trade to Indian chiefs, and used ceremonially. Not something the average backwoods Joe would have been carrying tucked in his belt.

kje54 · Sep 18, 2020

Stophel said:
I don't know of any similar French examples. Of course, trade with the French came to a halt after Britain took over Canada.

The pipe tomahawks were, I think, primarily intended for trade to Indian chiefs, and used ceremonially. Not something the average backwoods Joe would have been carrying tucked in his belt.

I didn't think so but thanks. What about the "mini" hawks? Modern or authentic?

Stophel · Sep 18, 2020

Here's a picture of items dug at Ft. Ticonderoga. See for yourself what is authentic.

Stophel · Sep 18, 2020

What do you mean by "mini" hawks? If you mean fairly small axes of the typical wrapped-eye, poll-less variety, you can see a bunch of them in the picture I just posted.

kje54 · Sep 18, 2020

Stophel said:
What do you mean by "mini" hawks? If you mean fairly small axes of the typical wrapped-eye, poll-less variety, you can see a bunch of them in the picture I just posted.

The one's that some sites call mini hawks, about 10" long, probably has a smaller head. I see from the picture there appears to be some.

Notchy Bob · Sep 18, 2020

I think R.E. Davis used to offer miniature pipe tomahawk heads and handles, maybe half or two thirds of "normal" size. It was my understanding that these were more of a novelty, suggested as practice for assembling a real pipe tomahawk. I don't think these were particularly authentic. I thought I might get one of these not too long ago, but Davis no longer had them, and a cursory search failed to turn one up, so I abandoned the idea.

Stophel's picture is very interesting and informative, but the perspective may be misleading. If you compare the tomahawk and axe heads in the picture to the shovels, hoes, and picks, it appears they are likely full-sized.

By the second quarter of the nineteenth century, pipe tomahawks must have been pretty common. I think Cavalho mentioned one of the Delaware men in Fremont's expedition lost his pipe tomahawk, and left the group to go back and look for it. I'm pretty sure Gerstaecker also reported Cherokee hunters in Arkansas "smoking their tomahawks" in camp. I can't quote chapter and verse, but there were other similar anecdotal reports I recall of native men in the west having (and smoking) pipe tomahawks. These were just ordinary fellows, not chiefs or dignitaries.

Notchy Bob

Stophel · Sep 18, 2020

Notchy Bob said:
Stophel's picture is very interesting and informative, but the perspective may be misleading. If you compare the tomahawk and axe heads in the picture to the shovels, hoes, and picks, it appears they are likely full-sized.

Some are, some aren't. There are a LOT of axe heads on there, including many of "belt axe size". If you look in the bottom right corner, you can see some spike tomahawks. These are no bigger than a modern "half hatchet"... and probably a bit smaller than most of them.

There are some fairly small "tomahawks" shown, but what you don't see are the itsy-bitsy "Fort Meigs" type hatchets.

...actually, I've never seen the purported original "Fort Meigs" head... and I've never run across anyone else that has either.

George · Sep 19, 2020

Stophel said:
There are some fairly small "tomahawks" shown, but what you don't see are the itsy-bitsy "Fort Meigs" type hatchets.

...actually, I've never seen the purported original "Fort Meigs" head... and I've never run across anyone else that has either.

There is a belt axe/tomahawk displayed in the John James Audubon Museum in Henderson, Kentucky, which belonged to Gen. Samuel Hopkins, active military in the revolutionary war. Carl Russell has a drawing of it in his book. Hard to judge size of the original, but the shape is close to the one sold as the Ft. Meigs ax. It's called the Kentucky pattern axe.

toot · Sep 19, 2020

Dale Lilly said:
Here are two knives that are quite old but not PC/HC I am sure. However they attract attention when carried. The sheaths are my make from buffalo. I see similar sheaths in 1800s paintings [Miller]. Posted before in another thread but fit here best. Polecat

if every one worried about being PC/HC. no one would ever have any fun. remember that we all live in the 21st. centaury your items look great!.

Period knives and Tomahawks

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