Gibbs 451 rifle

Crow-Feather · Jun 23, 2020

I just traded for a (I believe) Dixie/Pedersoli Gibbs rifle. It has a factory installed palm rest that screws into a metal fitting just forward of the trigger guard. It came with a Paul Jones mold marked #4500. No serial number on the rifle, but the stock and parts of the rifle have a 58 stamped on them. It had set on a Rondy vendor's rack for quite a few years. The nipple looks like it has been shot, but I could find no other indication on the rifle or mold to indicate that they had been used. It came with the Hadley eye cup.
The mold, marked #45000, does not cast bullets that resemble the #45000 cast bullet pictured on the internet. It casts a 408 grain (1:20) flat nose bullet with 4 grease grooves. The bands mike at .451. When I turn a bullet in the bore, I can see that a .451 sizer is necessary.

I was watching some videos of the loading, and saw that a tube is placed into the barrel to ensure the powder is dry and at the bottom of the bore. Since I have never seen one of these tubes, I guess that a 1/4" copper pipe with a funnel might work? I would believe that it also settles the powder consistently as with BPCR loads. I have read about pure lead, 1:16 lead/Tin and 1:20 lead/tin for the bullets. As I have a bunch of 1:20 already mixed for BPCR, that is what I cast.

The level on the front sight is missing as are the screws that hold the level. If anyone knows where I might find the parts, could you please advise? And anyone who has or has owned one of these rifles that can supply information, I would thank you in advance.

FishDFly · Jun 23, 2020

VTI or Lee Shaver

ResearchPress · Jun 24, 2020

Do you have a picture you can post? Curious about the palm rest for what is a prone or back position rifle for long range shooting. I‘m not aware of Pedersoli installing such on the rifle. That’s quite a light bullet for the Gibbs - around 530 grains would be more typical for long range target shooting. I use 30:1 lead:tin bullets in my Ped. Gibbs. Give your 20:1 a try.

Be careful with a long loading tube. You run the risk of wear at the muzzle - the tube I use is only around 9 inches long and I have a plastic muzzle protector around it. If you use a tube, always check that the powder has fully dropped through - they have been known to trap powder. Most people I know just use a short funnel.

Have a look at the Long Range Muzzle Loading section of my web site. Besides Pedersoli’s instructions and advice for long range shooting, there are many other introductory articles.

David

Crow-Feather · Jun 24, 2020

ResearchPress said:
Do you have a picture you can post? Curious about the palm rest for what is a prone or back position rifle for long range shooting. I‘m not aware of Pedersoli installing such on the rifle. That’s quite a light bullet for the Gibbs - around 530 grains would be more typical for long range target shooting. I use 30:1 lead:tin bullets in my Ped. Gibbs. Give your 20:1 a try.

Be careful with a long loading tube. You run the risk of wear at the muzzle - the tube I use is only around 9 inches long and I have a plastic muzzle protector around it. If you use a tube, always check that the powder has fully dropped through - they have been known to trap powder. Most people I know just use a short funnel.

Have a look at the Long Range Muzzle Loading section of my web site. Besides Pedersoli’s instructions and advice for long range shooting, there are many other introductory articles.

David

Thank you

Crow-Feather · Jun 24, 2020

Thank you. Pic tomorrow.

Crow-Feather · Jun 24, 2020

FishDFly said:
VTI or Lee Shaver

Thank you

fleener · Jun 24, 2020

I used to use a funnel with a full length tube for loading. Now for several years I simply use a small plastic funnel with a 5" or so piece of brass rod on it. I also use a bore protector on my muzzle to protect it.

What is your intention with this rifle? Are you wanting to just play with it and shoot 100-200 yards or are you thinking that you want to shoot 1,000 yards and do some competitive shooting?

Fleener

Crow-Feather · Jun 24, 2020

Don't mind the cat, he is a picture hog. This is a 2004 made rifle. Couldn't find the serial number because it was in front of me. The "palm device" is fitted for the palm and thumb. Camera battery died before I could get another pic.

Crow-Feather · Jun 24, 2020

fleener said:
I used to use a funnel with a full length tube for loading. Now for several years I simply use a small plastic funnel with a 5" or so piece of brass rod on it. I also use a bore protector on my muzzle to protect it.

What is your intention with this rifle? Are you wanting to just play with it and shoot 100-200 yards or are you thinking that you want to shoot 1,000 yards and do some competitive shooting?

Fleener

I guess that I will have to see how well the rifle will do, then see if there are any competitions in the area. Rural Idaho is not the hub of activity. We do have 1,000 yard open areas nearby. My range is only good for 100 yds.

Crow-Feather · Jun 27, 2020

fleener said:
I used to use a funnel with a full length tube for loading. Now for several years I simply use a small plastic funnel with a 5" or so piece of brass rod on it. I also use a bore protector on my muzzle to protect it.

What is your intention with this rifle? Are you wanting to just play with it and shoot 100-200 yards or are you thinking that you want to shoot 1,000 yards and do some competitive shooting?

Fleener

Took the Gibbs out to the range today. Tried 1 1/2 F, 2F, but 3F worked best. My biggest problem was shooting at 70 yards with a long range sight. The sight setting for 70 yards was .008. I had a hard time getting a proper cheek weld that would allow me to see the sights without smacking the snot outta my cheekbone.
My one question is why does a person have to use a funnel and drop tube to drop powder in the bore?
I have some 550 grain bullets on order from Buffalo Arms and will try them at 1oo yards. If they work, I will try to find a mold for the heavier bullet.

ResearchPress · Jun 28, 2020

Crow-Feather said:
My one question is why does a person have to use a funnel and drop tube to drop powder in the bore?

You don’t have to use a drop tube. I‘ve shot long range muzzle loaders for over 20 years and seldom seen anyone use one. A short funnel helps with loading, especially on a breezy open range, making it easier to ensure all the powder goes down the barrel. After powder I use a tight fitting card wad, which will help brush down any powder that may have adhered to the bore. If you do use one, make sure you have some protection to the muzzle - you don’t any the drop tube causing wear.

David

fleener · Jun 28, 2020

Like David said, the funnel just helps with dropping the powder and the 3-4 inches of brass tube, keeps it in the barrel.

Your rifle will like the 500 grain bullets. I am generally on the light side of most people shooting 86 grains of swiss 2F.

It is tough shooting these things at short ranges for the very reason you stated. If I am shooting at 100 yards to work up a load, I dont worry about hitting center, I just make sure that I have plenty of paper above the center and shoot for a group.

Fleener

52Bore · Jun 28, 2020

The straight stock is for LR shooting - as you’ve experienced, close shooting the sights are way down... The palm rest is not standard for the Ped. Gibbs, perhaps for a different Pedersoli Schuetzen Rifle?
congrats and good luck.

Crow-Feather · Jun 28, 2020

52Bore said:
The straight stock is for LR shooting - as you’ve experienced, close shooting the sights are way down... The palm rest is not standard for the Ped. Gibbs, perhaps for a different Pedersoli Schuetzen Rifle?
congrats and good luck.

The inletting looks to be done at the factory. I don't know of a rifle put out by Pedersoli in 2004 that mimicked the Gibbs.

TFoley · Jun 28, 2020

Just to reiterate - this rifle was designed from the outset as a PRONE-shooting rifle, at ranges from about 500 yards and up to 1200 yards, as Mr Minshall, an international long-range shooting competitor and many times winner notes in his references. Sure, you COULD use it for silhouette shooting or schuetzen-style target at 200 yards, which is probably why somebody has had fitted with a palm rest, but it's rather like putting a bipod on a Trapdoor Springfield - it might be handy, but it sure doesn't look right.

Crow-Feather · Jun 28, 2020

To all those who responded. You have helped greatly and I appreciate you replies. Thank you and God Bless.

Crow-Feather · Jun 28, 2020

TFoley said:
Just to reiterate - this rifle was designed from the outset as a PRONE-shooting rifle, at ranges from about 500 yards and up to 1200 yards, as Mr Minshall, an international long-range shooting competitor and many times winner notes in his references. Sure, you COULD use it for silhouette shooting or schuetzen-style target at 200 yards, which is probably why somebody has had fitted with a palm rest, but it's rather like putting a bipod on a Trapdoor Springfield - it might be handy, but it sure doesn't look right.

Well Sir,
You are right and I doubt that I will ever use it (much). One Rendezvous in our area shoots their BPCR's at 30 yards and then at 75 yards. Next year, I will be ready. Otherwise I agree with you. It does make it sort of a unique factory equipped rifle.

Relic shooter · Jun 28, 2020

Crow-Feather said:
I just traded for a (I believe) Dixie/Pedersoli Gibbs rifle. It has a factory installed palm rest that screws into a metal fitting just forward of the trigger guard. It came with a Paul Jones mold marked #4500. No serial number on the rifle, but the stock and parts of the rifle have a 58 stamped on them. It had set on a Rondy vendor's rack for quite a few years. The nipple looks like it has been shot, but I could find no other indication on the rifle or mold to indicate that they had been used. It came with the Hadley eye cup.
The mold, marked #45000, does not cast bullets that resemble the #45000 cast bullet pictured on the internet. It casts a 408 grain (1:20) flat nose bullet with 4 grease grooves. The bands mike at .451. When I turn a bullet in the bore, I can see that a .451 sizer is necessary.

I was watching some videos of the loading, and saw that a tube is placed into the barrel to ensure the powder is dry and at the bottom of the bore. Since I have never seen one of these tubes, I guess that a 1/4" copper pipe with a funnel might work? I would believe that it also settles the powder consistently as with BPCR loads. I have read about pure lead, 1:16 lead/Tin and 1:20 lead/tin for the bullets. As I have a bunch of 1:20 already mixed for BPCR, that is what I cast.

The level on the front sight is missing as are the screws that hold the level. If anyone knows where I might find the parts, could you please advise? And anyone who has or has owned one of these rifles that can supply information, I would thank you in advance.

Nice find Crow Feather, does your rifle have conventional style rifling or Whitworth style rifling ?
A couple years ago I sold a very similar rifle that I had purchased from Val Forgett at Friendship years ago to a fellow in Colorado, he said LR shooting was pretty popular there.
Val had these repro Gibbs style rifles made for International Shooting Team shooter in the replica class & others interested.
If your rifle doesn't have Whitworth style rifling I still have a bunch of cast, sized & lubed bullets that will work well in your rifle if your in the Boise area, think I had sized them to .451 & weigh out at about 520 gr. & were very accurate. As I recall they had about 12 lube groves & I cast them from a vintage Ideal mold, let mine go with the rifle but could likely locate another on the internet if the ones I have work well in your rifle.
Years ago I owned an original Whitworth rifle & the only way that I could get it to shoot accurate is to cast them from a section of a repro Whitworth barrel. Haven't checked but maybe those molds are more readily available now.

TFoley · Jun 28, 2020

relic shooter said:
Nice find Crow Feather, does your rifle have conventional style rifling or Whitworth style rifling ?
A couple years ago I sold a very similar rifle that I had purchased from Val Forgett at Friendship years ago to a fellow in Colorado, he said LR shooting was pretty popular there.
Val had these repro Gibbs style rifles made for International Shooting Team shooter in the replica class & others interested.
If your rifle doesn't have Whitworth style rifling I still have a bunch of cast, sized & lubed bullets that will work well in your rifle if your in the Boise area, think I had sized them to .451 & weigh out at about 520 gr. & were very accurate. As I recall they had about 12 lube groves & I cast them from a vintage Ideal mold, let mine go with the rifle but could likely locate another on the internet if the ones I have work well in your rifle.
Years ago I owned an original Whitworth rifle & the only way that I could get it to shoot accurate is to cast them from a section of a repro Whitworth barrel. Haven't checked but maybe those molds are more readily available now.

Alas, no. The Kranen mould from The Netherlands seems to have disappeared, and Mr Romano in NY[?] has left the building. The Dyson mould is a decoration piece only and the Polisar Brothers seem also to have given up on them. You might like to make your own using a Corbin swager - I believe from Steve Polisar that there was one set of dies and punches spare for around $3K, but that's about it.

Ready-mades from Dixie Gun Works? Hmmmmmmmmmmmmm. Who knows?

Crow-Feather · Jun 28, 2020

relic shooter said:
Nice find Crow Feather, does your rifle have conventional style rifling or Whitworth style rifling ?
A couple years ago I sold a very similar rifle that I had purchased from Val Forgett at Friendship years ago to a fellow in Colorado, he said LR shooting was pretty popular there.
Val had these repro Gibbs style rifles made for International Shooting Team shooter in the replica class & others interested.
If your rifle doesn't have Whitworth style rifling I still have a bunch of cast, sized & lubed bullets that will work well in your rifle if your in the Boise area, think I had sized them to .451 & weigh out at about 520 gr. & were very accurate. As I recall they had about 12 lube groves & I cast them from a vintage Ideal mold, let mine go with the rifle but could likely locate another on the internet if the ones I have work well in your rifle.
Years ago I owned an original Whitworth rifle & the only way that I could get it to shoot accurate is to cast them from a section of a repro Whitworth barrel. Haven't checked but maybe those molds are more readily available now.

I am on the other side of the state near Idaho Falls, but would be willing to pay for shipping if you want me to try a few out.

Gibbs 451 rifle

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