Wogdon & Barton Dueller Build.

Hi 1861Colt,
You are right but don't compare the early American gun trade with that in Britain. Dueling pistols of the quality by Wogdon were not made in rural shops with a master and a few apprentices. They were made by a whole string of subcontracted tradesmen for very discerning customers. Anyway, the British makers generally aligned lock bolt and tang screw slots with the barrel, especially if the heads were engraved and integrated into the surrounding engraving. Below are some examples from my work.






However, it was not universally applied. I have 2 original English fowlers from the 1760s that have misaligned lock bolt screws and tang bolts. One is by Joseph Heylin, one of the best London makers at that time.

dave

I wasn't I talking about American long rifles . But English work of any pretensions of quality ..To get the slots to align the screws are made rather more like engineering threads but with a taper and had a deep head you fitted the by a ' slave' slot . Then marking the' North & South ' cut off the deeper slave screw slot portion & cut a fresh finished slot .hence it aligned as it should . Boxes of screws per Nettlefolds are them selves becoming hard to find and modern offerings are useless for our purposes . If its new work I find deepening the counter sink will generally get you there . Some might think it a matter of no importance but visualy its very important and was the norm on most any sort of English gun. I had posted the above then see Dave Person posted ahead of me he's right though I suspect the exceptions he notes are the result of of shrinkage or abuse .They are old guns .
Regards Rudyard

Yup, makes sense. A customer paying a boatload of cash for a gun wouldn't want it to be all "screwed up ".

Hi Rudyard,
In the case of the Heylin, the tang screw is almost 90 degrees off, which could be shrinkage I guess but it is a lot.

The engraving pattern doesn't require a certain position so the original orientation cannot be deduced by it. On the other fowler, the forward lock bolt slot is vertical and that is because the bolt has a notch in the middle so the ramrod can clear it. Thus it was made in that orientation.

The rear bolt is also off and threaded fully into a blind hole. It can be looser but it cannot be tighter regardless of wood shrinkage. However the tang screw is nicely indexed.


I am not sure why I did not index the tang screws on my dueling pistols. Its been 11 years and the lock bolts are indexed. I just may have gotten lazy or simply missed the detail. Unfortunately, that happens to me.

Dear Dave . It is a very old gun .It is unlikely it was made cockeyed . looks like a good Spanish barrel commonly found on earlier 18th c guns . The 'side nails'&' tang nails' your calling' bolts' where unlikely to be made to align they are so frequently removed side nails at least, Not the tang nail anything else with a thread on gets called a' pin' like tumbler pin, hand pin Bridle pins . I never had an hours tuition in a big gun makers firm . But I read lots of the old UK 'Shooting times 'and listened to Lynton Mc Kenzie at the dusty seminars we had at Friendship shoots before they built the cabin He certainly knew his stuff .I don't mean to' pick you up'. Your work is brilliant . Mine is 'rude provincial' at best in comparison but its a matter of market Regards Rudyard

A beautiful pistol of mine by Smith (London) showing the lock screw out of line, probably due to wood movement as the trigger plate screw is North/South, an interesting feature with this gun is that the engraver forgot to flick out the metal shaving.

Why was the Brookes Barrel shewn with London Proof Marks?? Was it sent to London for Proof or was these Brookes made stamp??

Hi Phil,
I love that little pistol! I wish we had a good commercially made lock that was small like that. I can make locks from castings but even then the process takes a lot of hours. By the time you clean up cast internals for those small locks, you have almost no metal left around the screw holes. Consequently, I have to make those by hand. I like looking at the 18th and early 19th century British engraving. Some is very nice but a lot was clearly done quickly. On one of my 18th century originals, I cleaned gunk out of a deeply shaded portion of the engraving. When I looked at it under magnification it showed the shading was accomplished using a square graver that was tapped into the shaded area over and over again eventually creating some depth. No neat cross hatched lines just mash the graver in there over and over then fill with gunk.

dave

There were guns that were made specifically for customers which could cost a lot of money and also mass produced ones, the same as today, the same goes for engraving, in most cases you get what you pay for.

Here's that gun from a different angle and also a pair of "Jones (Wrexham)" pistols showing some small locks

Phil

Oh WOW! I finally get to see what the inside of the Smith lock looks like. I have collected a lot of pictures of his little pistols and never one that is exposed. I like these things in kind of an intriguing way, they are bulky unlike a Deringer, but cute anyway. Kind of a little chubby cheeks baby. Would you be willing to offer the barrel length to hook, overall length, gauge, muzzle width and bridle, tumbler and plate and bar thicknesses? More details if you find it convenient to do so. I've had wanted to build one, but lacked details to go with it. Twist barrel is a problem, though.THANK YOU!

Wow. Built like little watches.

1861colt said:

Oh WOW! I finally get to see what the inside of the Smith lock looks like. I have collected a lot of pictures of his little pistols and never one that is exposed. I like these things in kind of an intriguing way, they are bulky unlike a Deringer, but cute anyway. Kind of a little chubby cheeks baby. Would you be willing to offer the barrel length to hook, overall length, gauge, muzzle width and bridle, tumbler and plate and bar thicknesses? More details if you find it convenient to do so. I've had wanted to build one, but lacked details to go with it. Twist barrel is a problem, though.THANK YOU!

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It's in my safe with a few other beauties but leave it with me, when I get a minute or two I'll get some measurements to you.

Stunning, if only that original pair could Speak to us!!

Dear Phil, See your Baby Muff (Not bush) pistol appears to have Hook breach plug. Is it Knox form inside. Certainly,when it was made it would have been outside my league. It must be a joy to own. OLD DOG..

To me the original pair speak of late night rides along dark roads, the comfort of its weight in your pocket or waistband. How many times was a nervous hand lowered to make sure of its place? Had the pan remained closed and did the prime remain intact? Would it perform as required when called upon to do so?...I digress.

But, just pointing it at someone, might be enough, as the bore on the Smith is quite substantial!

Phil Coggan said:

But, just pointing it at someone, might be enough, as the bore on the Smith is quite substantial!

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I completely agree, as I always say, looking down the business end of a weapon Definitely has a Calming Effect.
But, on the Old Coach Road, at night, it might not be seen, so would have to "speak" to be of effect.

Anyone who's been in harm's way can testify to the many thoughts that run thru your mind while waiting. Every possible scenario is rehearsed, every possible outcome runs thru your mind. I know I was constantly checking my weapon, even though I knew it was ready. I think that hasn't changed much over time. I imagine Roman Centurions checked their short swords and spears as well.

These small pistols often of about 16 bore are called at least today & probably in their times' Man stoppers 'I have a converted example by Lacy & Co .
Of Smith it being a common name which' Smith' is a guess, But Wm Smith father of Samuel & Charles Smith was a notable Smith . The brothers bridles are ' T' shaped. I once was rumageing in the one candle power light shed ( From batteries the owner topped up by steam engines ) and in a buiscit box I found a detatched lock , We could 'nt see details but I said to the owner a slightly excentric old man. "This is characteristic of the work of Samuel & Charles Smith" and sure enough once in the sunlight thats what it was . The old boy was greatly impressed . He lived in a old railway carriage Surrounded by mountains of scrap includeing 4 steam traction engines & numerous portable engines and assured me" He was going to live forever ' In this last prediction he was disappointed as I saw the courtage pass me while I was camped on the stock route later (Starlight Hotel , very modest tariff) This was rural Victoria Australia late 70s .
Regards Rudyard

made like a SWISS WATCH WITH A JEWELED MOVEMENT!! GOD these guys back in the day were real artisans!.

Phil Coggan said:

It's in my safe with a few other beauties but leave it with me, when I get a minute or two I'll get some measurements to you.

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Like a cat in front of a mouse hole with it's mouth open and cheese on it's tongue, I wait with baited breath.