Flintlock Snobbery

Smokey Plainsman said:

Thanks, Bob! I think people might like to see a Black Powder TV video about your caplocks sometime!

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Will do! I've been busy today! Got two more flintlocks in! Two Jack Duprey guns! A Soddy and an Upper East TN! I posted pics on the other forum.

Griz44Mag said:

Guess you didn't get it..... I don't give a rip about Hipocritically Correct.
Period correct is a traditional gun, traditionally 95+% of the guns used by our forefathers did not have all the fancy frills and super high end finishes that are considered "correct" by that crowd. They were work guns. Many of them were patched, repaired, fitted with parts from several eras and kept going to do the job they were made for. They did not care if the lock had a historically incorrect round end or a lock screw with 8 instead of 9 threads or if the painted over repaired stock was finished in barn paint instead of triple boiled linseed.
Don't look down your nose at people who don't do things your way or have things that would meet with your approval.

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We’re gun nuts. We like to fiddle with our guns, we read about them, we think about them when we’re not shooting. We want a gun we can be proud to own. Hot rodders, model train guys, trekkies are all cut from the same bolt of cloth as us.
Most guys that owned guns in the past didn’t think about them any more then a hammer or a cooking pot.
There were gun nuts back then, but like today it was a minority.
I THINK that if you ‘aged’ a CVA Mountain rifle, and stuck it in a grouping of 1840-60 unsigned plains guns no one would pick it out. Same thing with an Italian or Japanese, or(gasp) Loyalist arms bess, aged it and throw it in with some originals no one, or very few would pick out the imposter.
We play in history, but when we go to an event we don’t represent a random slice of the public, we represent a gatherings of elites and ‘specials’

tenngun said:

We’re gun nuts. We like to fiddle with our guns, we read about them, we think about them when we’re not shooting. We want a gun we can be proud to own. Hot rodders, model train guys, trekkies are all cut from the same bolt of cloth as us.
Most guys that owned guns in the past didn’t think about them any more then a hammer or a cooking pot.
There were gun nuts back then, but like today it was a minority.
I THINK that if you ‘aged’ a CVA Mountain rifle, and stuck it in a grouping of 1840-60 unsigned plains guns no one would pick it out. Same thing with an Italian or Japanese, or(gasp) Loyalist arms bess, aged it and throw it in with some originals no one, or very few would pick out the imposter.
We play in history, but when we go to an event we don’t represent a random slice of the public, we represent a gatherings of elites and ‘specials’

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Kaspar Mansker and Davy Crockett were two local boys who were gun nuts for sure. And the guns they left behind were art rivalling the Mona Lisa.

It’s true, but Carson owned something guns that were rode hard end put up wet, Schoolcraft seemed to have had a gun mostly not working.

Hi, I could use some advice

I don't want to stir up any trouble but have a predicament I want some experienced opinions on. Let me start from the beginning, I'm new to muzzleloading and want to get into it. I recently went to my second rendezvous where I wasn't a literal child. In fact today I just bought a used tent from a mentor. He said he knows someone who is selling a precussion cap and a flintlock at a price I can afford so I can have something to get started. I think I want a precussion cap for my first one since I hear it's easier to start off with and I'm pretty much on my own. On the other hand my dad is making me a nice one but it won't be ready for a few years. Well I talked with him today and he said that he can make it a flintlock instead of a cap since he hasn't started yet. My question is, for my second or third muzzleloader, do I have him make a precussion because that's what I would have learned on, or do make the jump to the harder flintlock?

This got me thinking and I just have to ask, why use flintlocks in the first place? Other than being historically accurate and cool looking, why do all my mentors prefer them over precussion caps even though on paper they seem inferior? Please bare with my naivety, I'm new and could really use some advice.
Many thanks, Dan

Young Dan said:

Hi, I could use some advice

I don't want to stir up any trouble but have a predicament I want some experienced opinions on. Let me start from the beginning, I'm new to muzzleloading and want to get into it. I recently went to my second rendezvous where I wasn't a literal child. In fact today I just bought a used tent from a mentor. He said he knows someone who is selling a precussion cap and a flintlock at a price I can afford so I can have something to get started. I think I want a precussion cap for my first one since I hear it's easier to start off with and I'm pretty much on my own. On the other hand my dad is making me a nice one but it won't be ready for a few years. Well I talked with him today and he said that he can make it a flintlock instead of a cap since he hasn't started yet. My question is, for my second or third muzzleloader, do I have him make a precussion because that's what I would have learned on, or do make the jump to the harder flintlock?

This got me thinking and I just have to ask, why use flintlocks in the first place? Other than being historically accurate and cool looking, why do all my mentors prefer them over precussion caps even though on paper they seem inferior? Please bare with my naivety, I'm new and could really use some advice.
Many thanks, Dan

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Dan, to quickly answer the why shoot flintlocks question from my perspective. I’m one of the many rural peope who grew up with guns as an integral part of our leisure time. I had a strong interest in history growing up and naturally those two thing melded together. My first focus was the Civil War, so I wanted caplocks. As my interest shifted towards the Colonial Era, F&I and Rev War, I shifted to Flintlocks. I found them fascinating and have hunted with them exclusively since. That’s how I got here. Others have taken different paths.
I probably have a little ‘snobbery’ but it’s because I’ll drive several hundred miles to handle an original, especially those made in my areas of interest. They are art. With a few early exceptions, caplocks tended to be more, like most modern guns, functional but not beautiful.

Young Dan said:

Hi, I could use some advice

I don't want to stir up any trouble but have a predicament I want some experienced opinions on. Let me start from the beginning, I'm new to muzzleloading and want to get into it. I recently went to my second rendezvous where I wasn't a literal child. In fact today I just bought a used tent from a mentor. He said he knows someone who is selling a precussion cap and a flintlock at a price I can afford so I can have something to get started. I think I want a precussion cap for my first one since I hear it's easier to start off with and I'm pretty much on my own. On the other hand my dad is making me a nice one but it won't be ready for a few years. Well I talked with him today and he said that he can make it a flintlock instead of a cap since he hasn't started yet. My question is, for my second or third muzzleloader, do I have him make a precussion because that's what I would have learned on, or do make the jump to the harder flintlock?

This got me thinking and I just have to ask, why use flintlocks in the first place? Other than being historically accurate and cool looking, why do all my mentors prefer them over precussion caps even though on paper they seem inferior? Please bare with my naivety, I'm new and could really use some advice.
Many thanks, Dan

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My son-in-law asked me a similar question about why I drive an antique, manual transmission car with a hand choke. And not just on special occasions, but every day.

I like the extra challenge. Things that are harder to do make me happy, because once I master them, I feel a sense of accomplishment. I also think machines that require me to interact with them makes me care for them more.

I also like to experience some of the things our ancestors did. I find both of those things enjoyable.

Young Dan said:

Hi, I could use some advice

I don't want to stir up any trouble but have a predicament I want some experienced opinions on. Let me start from the beginning, I'm new to muzzleloading and want to get into it. I recently went to my second rendezvous where I wasn't a literal child. In fact today I just bought a used tent from a mentor. He said he knows someone who is selling a precussion cap and a flintlock at a price I can afford so I can have something to get started. I think I want a precussion cap for my first one since I hear it's easier to start off with and I'm pretty much on my own. On the other hand my dad is making me a nice one but it won't be ready for a few years. Well I talked with him today and he said that he can make it a flintlock instead of a cap since he hasn't started yet. My question is, for my second or third muzzleloader, do I have him make a precussion because that's what I would have learned on, or do make the jump to the harder flintlock?

This got me thinking and I just have to ask, why use flintlocks in the first place? Other than being historically accurate and cool looking, why do all my mentors prefer them over precussion caps even though on paper they seem inferior? Please bare with my naivety, I'm new and could really use some advice.
Many thanks, Dan

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For me there is the "extra" factor. To get the rifle, smoothbore, either, to shoot as we want it to, there is the flintlock fiddle factor. Is the flint sharp, tight, pan charge, correctly, and on and on and on as to "factors" to get it to shoot where we want. It is a bit more of a brain and diagnostic challenge to get them and keep them shooting properly. Then there is the challenge of having 2-3 grains of powder and related smoke about 8-10 inches go off in front of your eyes to blind you and still hit your target. Just a bit more of a challenge and brain teaser for all. And they add an additional unique factor for all to see at the range. Muzzleloaders are the bees knees.

I use this term with fountain pens as well. I enjoy using them also. Fountain pen fiddle factor. Clean em, load em, use em, tune em, erc. And they just look cool on your desk or in your hand when people come by.

Young Dan, Welcome to the Forum...

Warning: You are entering a dangerous zone!
Beware once the bug bites it over, you’re doomed for life.

I started with a cap lock gun like many here did , I’m now into my 5th decade of my addiction.

My journey has taken several paths, but the most enjoyable one of all was when I started shooting flintlocks. (2008)

Call it snobbery or whatever you will, but the one thing that is certain...

If you can master the flintlock offhand, shooting a percussion gun or modern gun will become second nature .

If you have the choice between the two, I would go with the flintlock gun.
I wish the internet or someone (Mentor) would have been areound back when my journey began.
Things would have been much easier along the way.

If you’re not looking for a challenge which some aren’t, then I would go with the percussion gun.
But if you like a challenge and want too be the best shooter you can become, start with a flint gun.

I have a 10 year old Grandson who just fired his fist muzzleloader last Summer....
I made sure it was a flintlock!

It sounds like your in an area with several rendezvous, go to those events and talk with as many like minded people as you can.
The main thing is keeping things safe, use the correct powder and learn you gun.
No matter what anyone says, it’s always powder , patch and ball ... flint or percussion you can’t go wrong.
Good Luck on your Journey

I don't think you will be stirring up any more trouble than others who have asked similar questions. You are getting started into the Rendezvous activities. You have the benefit of a mentor who is there to help you. You have similar issues to many of us in that there are few in your immediate vicinity to provide help and guidance. As to the offer of choosing between a percussion cap gun or a flintlock, my first choice is at the entry level price point, get the percussion lock gun. With the percussion lock rifle, you will be able to participate in all rendezvous shooting events while learning about the nuances of shooting traditional muzzleloading rifles. Of course I am making this suggestion not knowing the manufacturers of the rifles being offered. That knowledge might change my mind, but it would have to be a rifle with a great lock at a great price point to influence any change in my recommendation. What does your mentor recommend?

The second reason I would suggest a percussion lock rifle first is the offer that your dad is making a rifle for you and it could be made as a flintlock. What school are you thinking of for this future build? As background in my decision is the question of your dad's experience in making a traditional muzzle loading rifle. You talk about an approximate two year time line. That is time enough to become familiar with the shooting of a traditional muzzleloading rifle and the life in the rendezvous camps. If your dad has experience in building muzzleloading rifles, then I would think you would need to determine which style of rifle and school of architecture that he would follow. When building a flintlock rifle, once the style is determined and the era, get the best lock you can buy and have it tuned by an experienced flintlock gunsmith. With a percussion lock, its the barrel that determines performance accuracy. With a flintlock it is the lock which determines performance. The stock is just the dressing that improves appearance. In both cases getting the fit of the lock to the triggers and barrel, you need to place the breech in the correct place. What books does your dad use to guide his construction methods?

In any event, after two or three years of shooting a percussion lock rifle, making the transition to a flintlock rifle with a top quality lock will be easy. By the way, always use real black powder!

Concluding comment in post #174 by @Eterry :

Remember, this thread started off as a humorous look at Flintlock shooters...

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Yes, a to the humorous.

I've been following this thread steadily so far, mainly because I haven't yet had the chance to shoot a flintlock. I have a sidelock pistol, and an underhammer pistol. I'd like to have the chance someday to try out a flintlock pistol. ~wiksmo

Young Dan said:

My question is, for my second or third muzzleloader, do I have him make a precussion because that's what I would have learned on, or do make the jump to the harder flintlock?

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Shoot a flintlock or two first then you will be able to make your own decision.

Young Dan said:

Hi, I could use some advice

I don't want to stir up any trouble but have a predicament I want some experienced opinions on. Let me start from the beginning, I'm new to muzzleloading and want to get into it. I recently went to my second rendezvous where I wasn't a literal child. In fact today I just bought a used tent from a mentor. He said he knows someone who is selling a precussion cap and a flintlock at a price I can afford so I can have something to get started. I think I want a precussion cap for my first one since I hear it's easier to start off with and I'm pretty much on my own. On the other hand my dad is making me a nice one but it won't be ready for a few years. Well I talked with him today and he said that he can make it a flintlock instead of a cap since he hasn't started yet. My question is, for my second or third muzzleloader, do I have him make a precussion because that's what I would have learned on, or do make the jump to the harder flintlock?

This got me thinking and I just have to ask, why use flintlocks in the first place? Other than being historically accurate and cool looking, why do all my mentors prefer them over precussion caps even though on paper they seem inferior? Please bare with my naivety, I'm new and could really use some advice.
Many thanks, Dan

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What do you want to do with your guns? Functionally, both caplocks and flintlocks can be very capable target, hunting or plinking guns. If you want to try historical reenactment, then the time period you select will determine whether you need a flint or percussion gun (& possibly a fairly specific one as well). For rendezvous, either will be fine as rondys do not do a specific time. Caplocks have the advantage of (all things being equal) being easier to learn to shoot & cheaper to buy (a good lock is the heart of any flintlock & a percussion lock is both simpler to make & more forgiving in design). To me flint is more like a stickshift & percussion more like an automatic. Both will get you from A to B, but some prefer the old school challenge & some the more modern (relatively speaking) convenience.

Eterry said:

A shop full of expensive power tools and equipment maybe nice, but it certainly isn't necessary.
Have a cheap harbor freight vise? No problem, just make a set of padded blocks out of scrap lumber and leather.
I know Nicholson files are the best, I have 1, bought used at a yard sale. Most mine are cheap files picked up at estate sales and flea markets.
Also have one set of nice chisels, the rest came from HF.

I recall the article from Muzzle Blast where the guy traveled by canoe to a shoot with a "lock, stock and barrel" and a few tools and scraps of metal.
In 3 days he had a shootable Fowler... he hit the target with his 1st shot, IIRC.

Remember, this thread started off as a humorous look at Flintlock shooters... let's all count to 100 and take a few deep breaths.

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I enjoyed your mention about your cheap harbor freight vise. My wood vise was bought during the 1960s and was before the days of harbor freight. The lumber yard in those days had a box full of cheap tools that were called globe master. Most of them sold for a dollar 99 each. That's where I bought my wood vise, a good friend of mine fastened two pieces of three-quarter softwood to the jaws, and then covered them with some old velvet. I still use that darn thing, we have it mounted to an old 2 x 4, I clamp it to my workbench and use it to hold guns that I wanna do something to. Works good for bore sighting rifles as I can move it to whatever I want. Made two gun stocks in my life so it took a few other good tools to do that, but that old vise still works.

You're right about keeping it humorous, at my age I'm surely not a threat to anybody or anything so humor is by far the best. I enjoyed your post.
Squint

I am glad to be one of the flintlock snobs. Shot a couple of good mule deer and a bull elk with my 62 caliber Hawken flinter, all with my wooden bipod. Don't need to prove anything anymore to anyone. Off hand forget it, one of the percussions come out for hunting now, and I may even use a self leveling aluminum tripod.

Carbon 6 said:

Shoot a flintlock or two first then you will be able to make your own decision.

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The first time I fired a flintlock I fell in love. It was a nice expensive custom long gun with a swamped barrel and gold inlays. The gun was so beautiful that I was afraid to touch it. I ran out and bought a flintlock and spent the next few years hunting everything under the sun with a flintlock.
I still love my percussion guns and shoot them too, but there's a special place in my heart for a nice flintlock.
Not everyone has the same fondness though.

Well. today I went to the range to shoot my flint lock pistol. No place for me with flintlock snobbery. At about the tenth shot the flint went dull and I fought getting shots off the rest of the time at the range. Still it was a good day and I'm not giving up on my flintlock pistol. A new flint and more practice is in order.

As soon as you misfire with a flintlock assume it’s the touchhole. Prick it, and before you shoot again, assume your flint is dull, give it a look and if it is. Knap it. She’ll fire every time after.

...notwithstanding the occasional bad flint or you touched the frizzen face with your greasy fingers. In that case, wipe the frizzen face then toss the rock and put your replacement in.

Bob McBride said:

As soon as you misfire with a flintlock assume it’s the touchhole. Prick it, and before you shoot again, assume your flint is dull, give it a look and if it is. Knap it. She’ll fire every time after.

...notwithstanding the occasional bad flint or you touched the frizzen face with your greasy fingers. In that case, wipe the frizzen face then toss the rock and put your replacement in.

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This is the best and simplest instruction for flints that I have read to date.....

Bob McBride said:

As soon as you misfire with a flintlock assume it’s the touchhole. Prick it, and before you shoot again, assume your flint is dull, give it a look and if it is. Knap it. She’ll fire every time after.

...notwithstanding the occasional bad flint or you touched the frizzen face with your greasy fingers. In that case, wipe the frizzen face then toss the rock and put your replacement in.

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Griz44Mag said:

This is the best and simplest instruction for flints that I have read to date.....

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