Want To Shoot My Brown Bess

cositrike said:

As you’re new to BP, I would recommend that you find a black powder shooting club in your area. go see the guys there and explain what you are wanting. B P shooter are a friendly bunch. You’ll no doubt get all the help you need. Dixies recommendations won’t be far off, but I’d use a thicker patch, if your bore is actually .75. A lot of the older BB’s including Miroku tended to be a bit smaller, if I remember correctly. So I’d get your barrel mic’d first before buying balls or a mold. 2f should be fine for main charge. Some people use main charge in the pan too, but I prefer Swiss null b for priming, but that’s just me.

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Do this. It is the best thing you can do. Besides, you will get tons of information from a bunch of guys that dont agree on anything. But they know what to do and most likely will teach you well

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Rudyard said:

My guess is these where the ones ' Coach Harness ' had promoted , I knew only of one sold to a Sheffield MLAGB member don't recall the engraved Escucheon . Lock was the Italian Grice lock . Later on I stocked up a Kit for a customer wood was Merranti but that was what he sent me . Kit Ravenshear was in the mix but to what extent I didn't know & I never asked him . Coach Harness owner Sandy Mac Nab gave it up and became a Shakespearian actor at Stratford on Avon . This said I could be way off & some other concern made them like Petersoli. Yours look fine to me. Regards Rudyard

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I bought my first BP revolver off Mr McNab at his little store in Hawley - and a lot of other stuff over the years, including my second revolver!! He showed me how to age a box label using a teabag, too, and a few other handy-to-know-about-making-guns-look-old stuff.

If it were me, I wouldn't bother patching the ball. In my experience, I can shoot a bare ball nested on top of a wad better than a patched ball in a smoothbore. I'm not alone in the arena. I shoot mostly .670 balls out of my .69 bore without a patch and hit a pie plate at 40 yards off hand every time. You should experiment though, and maybe you will find differently. Your King's Pattern musket being a military musket, you could eventually learn how to make cartridges. Either way, it'll be fun.

You don't need to fill the pan completely full. Half full is a good starting point. As long as the touch hole isn't covered with powder and is clear from obstruction, you should have ignition if your flint is in order. Military muskets were designed with large locks with large pans to ensure ignition consistently. They filled the pans full and the powder they were using was coarser than what most folks use today. Ignition isn't the fastest on big military locks, and more so the coarser the powder used. But though they were designed for consistency, military muskets did not need super fast ignition. If you're using 3F or even 2F in the pan, you likely won't notice the difference. Where I live, the summers are humid and anything smaller than 3F can actually make ignition less consistent due to the powder soaking up moisture.

There are a million and one differing opinions on cleaning. Do a search and pick one that is simple enough. 99% of the time we throw in little unnecessary details that we feel helps. Just remember black powder is water soluble, so at the MOST basic level, cleaning can encompass swabbing with water, drying, and oiling with rust preventative of just about any kind (especially those formulated for firearms - just wipe off oil before shooting again). We can add in soaps and scrapers, and special jags, and magic cleaning concoctions and all these things - and many of the extras are helpful - but don't be disheartened by the vast number of options and know that simplicity works well as a starting point.

starman said:

I live in Central Kentucky. There are several shooting clubs in my area, but none seem to have any black powder shooters or anyone interested in BP. I'm kind of on my own with BP. I appreciate the information, especially concerning ball size. I'll see if I can borrow some calipers and measure the true size of the bore. I have purchased a can each of 2F and 3F black powder. I still need balls and patches. Anything else? Should the patches be lubed? How about cleaning after shooting? What suggestions do you have? I expect the mechanics of cleaning will be different from a modern rifle.

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On the right hand side of this page you see Kentucky. Click on it to find NMLRA clubs for the state. You can't be far from Friendship, so one of the big shoots is also an option. Good luck. The NMLRA Charter Club Program — The NMLRA

starman said:

I am also interested in making paper cartridges. Any suggestions on how to do so?

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It's rather hard to read the instructions; however you can make the paper out of telephone book paper, or light typing/ computer paper. Using a 5/8 dowel rod with one concave end place the ball about 1 inch back from the 4 in. side with the cupped dowel against it. Start wrapping from the 4 in. side towards the slanted side. twist the paper next to the ball. Remove the dowel. At this point you may dip the ball end in wax or not. Pour 100 gr. of 2f black powder in the tube. fold the tube's top in on either side to form a truncated triangle. Fold this tail over and tuck it under the slanted edge.
Reenacters use aluminum foil for 'live' rounds and the paper for 'blanks' so as to instantly know the difference. Strange, but can't be too safe.

For anyone doubting the potential accuracy of the Brown Bess or any other smooth bore musket, please watch this video.

IMA Brown Bess Flintlock Musket .75 Cal Test Fire And Review

Thanks to all who replied to my thread. I received a lot of valuable information that I will put to good use!!

Woodwright said:

For anyone doubting the potential accuracy of the Brown Bess or any other smooth bore musket, please watch this video.

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Lots of fun to watch, and he's a good lad at marksmanship.

Unfortunately, he debunked nothing. He merely pointed out that folks are repeating a simplistic statement, while not understanding the actual parameters of the reality of the situation....

Even back when the Bess was the British state-of-the-art in infantry weapons, the musket was not thought to be "inaccurate". It was a well known fact that one could load a musket for accuracy, and in fact some military campaigns saw the creation of a company of "select marksmen" in particular armies. (1777 under Burgoyne in New York)

The lad shows the musket being fired 9 times. He may have fired it 8 times with a second camera getting the "target's perspective" on the 8th shot, OR he did fire nine accurate shots. Be that as it may....

The problem back in the day, and the problem today, is try shooting 8 accurate shots, 3X, with cartridges and ball made for accuracy, for a total of 24 rounds, without cleaning. THEN double check your loads under various conditions of humidity.

The reason the muskets were later declared by historians as "inaccurate past 30 yards", is because the infantryman didn't stop to swab the bore in combat, so..., the ammunition was made to deal with the accumulation of fouling, so a much smaller ball had to be employed to facilitate speed loading, and a lot of firing in combat, and thus it was the ammo used that was inaccurate.

I wish he'd actually told us what he thought the "full military charge" was that he was using, and the size of the ball since if he was using a .750 ball it would not have fit. There were several documented known loads for the use by the military.

The bayonet, if from a 2nd model Bess is not from the "Second Model Long Land musket", as what we call the "second model" today is the "Short Land" pattern. He was using a 3rd Model, aka the "India Pattern" Bess

LD

Speaking of the Japanese Bess, I found this photo in an old American Heritage book on the Rev War. The upper flintlock is an original Committee of Safety of Safety musket. I'm struck at how much it resembles the Miroku, especially the stock architecture. It also illustrated the differences with the original Brown Bess
( a 2nd Model I believe,shown below the CoS.).

anticus said:

The upper flintlock is an original Committee of Safety of Safety musket. I'm struck at how much it resembles the Miroku, especially the stock architecture.

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Which is thought to be one of the problems with either the Japanese or the Italian Bess. The companies copied existing muskets. In fact the story goes that the Japanese were given a "Bess" to copy, and when they sent back the first prototype, it looked like a 200 year old musket. The folks at Miroku then said, "Well you said copy the musket which you sent us."

So the Japanese made Bess copied a damaged Bess, do the trigger guard is a D shape, as nobody at that time (the early 1970's) knew better. They could have gotten an American made COS musket that somebody in 1970 thought was a British Bess..., which would explain the trigger guard.

The Italians as well thought they were copying a Bess, but they may have copied either a non-typical SLP from a maker that supplied a small amount of the total SLP's made, or more likely copied something akin to a militia musket, very close but not quite up to military standards. (The engraving on the lock was not a whim but on the musket they copied...it would NOT have been on a true SLP Bess)

The Italians also thought that since the SLP Bess was "approved" by the British Board of Ordinance in 1769, that the SLP Bess was correct for the AWI of 1776. In fact the large majority of the Bess in the AWI were what we today call the 1st or Long Land Pattern Bess, and ALL of the muskets in the F&I were such.

Oh well...


LD

For want of a bit more research & knowledge all the copied muskets could have been far closer than they are but that's hindsight . But at least it gave such as Kit Ravenshear occupied down dateing them .
Rudyard

Loyalist Dave said:

Lots of fun to watch, and he's a good lad at marksmanship.

Unfortunately, he debunked nothing. He merely pointed out that folks are repeating a simplistic statement, while not understanding the actual parameters of the reality of the situation....

Even back when the Bess was the British state-of-the-art in infantry weapons, the musket was not thought to be "inaccurate". It was a well known fact that one could load a musket for accuracy, and in fact some military campaigns saw the creation of a company of "select marksmen" in particular armies. (1777 under Burgoyne in New York)

The lad shows the musket being fired 9 times. He may have fired it 8 times with a second camera getting the "target's perspective" on the 8th shot, OR he did fire nine accurate shots. Be that as it may....

The problem back in the day, and the problem today, is try shooting 8 accurate shots, 3X, with cartridges and ball made for accuracy, for a total of 24 rounds, without cleaning. THEN double check your loads under various conditions of humidity.

The reason the muskets were later declared by historians as "inaccurate past 30 yards", is because the infantryman didn't stop to swab the bore in combat, so..., the ammunition was made to deal with the accumulation of fouling, so a much smaller ball had to be employed to facilitate speed loading, and a lot of firing in combat, and thus it was the ammo used that was inaccurate.

I wish he'd actually told us what he thought the "full military charge" was that he was using, and the size of the ball since if he was using a .750 ball it would not have fit. There were several documented known loads for the use by the military.

The bayonet, if from a 2nd model Bess is not from the "Second Model Long Land musket", as what we call the "second model" today is the "Short Land" pattern. He was using a 3rd Model, aka the "India Pattern" Bess

LD

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LD, You made some good points.

I regularly fired my Brown Bess Carbine during the 70's in competition and my results were similar to what the Lad in the link showed. Matter of fact, another older shooter got me into shooting plastic milk jugs at 100 yards, Offhand. He was good for at least 9 out of 10 times hitting it, because he had a lot more offhand experience than I at the time, though I got to the point I was hitting it 8 or more times out of 100.

I was using a lubed patched .735" ball in my .753" bore with 70 grains of FFg powder, because that is what shot best in the carbine from testing. Most matches I shot were 5 rounds, though a few went up to 7 or 8 rounds. There was only one time I could not load more than three such rounds without cleaning the bore and yes, that was on a high humidity and temperature in the 80's. HOWEVER, a large percentage of the matches I shot in were warm to very warm and with high humidity - especially on the Primitive Range at Friendship.

One thing Spence mentioned some time ago was putting a card AND a lubed wad before he loaded a patched round ball in his smoothbores and got really good accuracy even further than I shot at 100 yards. I never heard of that tip back in the day, but I would try it today, for sure.

Also when I was shooting my Carbine in Competition, I never thought to do a trigger job on it, even though I was doing trigger jobs on Military Locks even before I bought the Carbine. Today I would do a trigger job on the musket FOR SURE to do target shooting and even hunting.

Gus

Now I ain't no officiate when it comes to the various Bess's and their history but my short Pedersoli version is a fussy ole' girl. She don't like lobbing anything solid. Bizzarly she will throw a sized .760" down to just under .750" but I have to use lube to control the fouling.
I haven't fussed much with her as I'm a hunter and small shot is all I really need from her but in saying that she is greedy but will accommodate any willing participant entering her muzzle! .
Here is what she can do when in a good mood.

Only thirty yards though!
On the other hand she loves large buck shot. Large airgun pellets and 22 bullets.
B.

yes every one knows the story of the pattern sent to JAPAN by VAL FORGET, to be copied and it had a bent trigger guard and that is how that the copies came back! all of them have bent trigger guards all if these years later, now you know the rest of the story. thanks' to VAL, for starting the reproduction craze that we have today. I beleave he started in the 60's? BTW, he also sent them over origional CAP&BALL revolvers also.

toot said:

yes every one knows the story of the pattern sent to JAPAN by VAL FORGET, to be copied and it had a bent trigger guard.....

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DID IT?

That's the easy answer, but it ignores some obvious facts...,

Folks have told me the Bess that Mr. Forget used was obviously dropped and something hit the trigger guard causing the "dent". Then many years later he obtained it and used it to have the repros made by Miroku. BUT IF an impact caused the dent, the guard would have stressed outward and down from stock, and the trigger guard is rather stout even if it is brass. To make that shape would likely take more psi than the walnut could take.

The guard was bent, when it was off the musket. Then it was bent by hand to fit. The place where the "correctional bend" took place is marked. So too the Jap shape is drawn in on the Pedersoli guard. Somebody took hole of either side of the trigger guard on either side of the bow, and flexed it back into a shape that would fit into the stock.

The question then is, was this done before or after acceptance by the British Board of Ordinance? IF it was done before, then the original was NOT a military Bess. It could not have passed inspection, and the evidence so far is that no original Bess have been found with deformation of their trigger guards. So the original in this case may also have been a militia or private contract Bess at some point.

LD

Loyalist Dave said:

DID IT?

That's the easy answer, but it ignores some obvious facts...,

Folks have told me the Bess that Mr. Forget used was obviously dropped and something hit the trigger guard causing the "dent". Then many years later he obtained it and used it to have the repros made by Miroku. BUT IF an impact caused the dent, the guard would have stressed outward and down from stock, and the trigger guard is rather stout even if it is brass. To make that shape would likely take more psi than the walnut could take.

The guard was bent, when it was off the musket. Then it was bent by hand to fit. The place where the "correctional bend" took place is marked. So too the Jap shape is drawn in on the Pedersoli guard. Somebody took hole of either side of the trigger guard on either side of the bow, and flexed it back into a shape that would fit into the stock.

The question then is, was this done before or after acceptance by the British Board of Ordinance? IF it was done before, then the original was NOT a military Bess. It could not have passed inspection, and the evidence so far is that no original Bess have been found with deformation of their trigger guards. So the original in this case may also have been a militia or private contract Bess at some point.


LD

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I’ve heard a few stories about how the miruko guard become bent.

Obviously Miroku casted it that way, there would be no rational reason to bend the guard after casting.

I’ve been told from what I would say are decent resources was that Miroku copied a late Pattern Second Model with left over parts from the 1769 muskets and sold off for commercial use with the Hudson Bay Co and East India Co’s. I would imagine this to be somewhat true in so far that the lock has many of the same features of a 1755 lock, larger straighter plate at 7” With the earlier flintcock.

On another note, the commercial Bess muskets by King and Mortimer had some unusual features about them, the wrist plate was bolted beneath the trigger guard and some even didn’t use a trigger plate but a simple square nut And side plates varied from convex to flat.


I agree that its likely some type of commercial Brown Bess, not an ordnance pattern, and miroku and Pedersoli were known for copying each other’s product.

Matt from NC here. I do some living history and wanted to do a penetration test of my Brown Bess at normal battle range. How far apart were the lines of troops when they were firing at each other? I was planning on using a few layers of 3/4" plywood and 80grs of 2F. I watched the gunsmiths of Williamsburg on YouTube. Did the guys really practice on a target with a none on it or was that BS? I try to be as correct as possible.

MM

Can someone post a pic of these copied defects? Really not sure what you are referring to.

The trigger guard loop should be rounded, the miruko guard has almost a cliff shape to it.

See my drawing below.

I built my BB from a Navy Arms/Pedersoli kit in 1976. I choose the Navy simply because I did not want "made in Japan" stamped on my replica of a gun that helped win American freedom. I used mine plenty for many years. It is in retirement because of my health issues. I cannot hold it up to shoot. As for loading, I am an advocate of more moderate charges. I used only 50 to 70 gr. bp with fifty being my favorite. This was with a ticking patched .731" ball. As you can gather from previous posts, the bores in these Besses, both Italian and Japanese varied and must be checked before investing in a ball mould. I used 11 ga. wads from Flintlocks, Inc.