I don't like to use a ball starter.

Smokey Plainsman said:

Who the hell are you to tell me what does and doesn’t work from my own experience?? What a clown.

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Relax. I think he was being sarcastic. And for those of us who do question the spit lube that comes up every time lube is asked about, or any other time questions are asked about loading a muzzle loader,,,,, we aren't saying it doesn't work. But, if one must use a short/ball starter to get the best accuracy, we must be looking for a way that loads the rifle for the best results. Is spit really the best lube? How often is free stuff the best unavailable?
Free bread in Soviet Russia, free healthcare here,,, look what "free" public school education has done to our kids and society (talk about missing the mark), free food at the soup kitchen? The best?
To me, the best lube produces reduced fowling (I refuse to swab between shots), repeatable results, usable accuracy, is usable under all conditions, and readily available without specialty stores, so stuff one might have at home or can produce oneself. Spit only meets that last one. Granted, I'm not seeking minute of angle accuracy from my flintlock, most people can't really take advantage of the mechanical accuracy they say they want out of any shooting system anyway.

Use spit, it works for you, under your conditions, currently. Do you have a second that works well when conditions change?

Carbon 6 said:

I wonder what they did when they had to use a fabric that was just a wee bit to tight for loading with the ramrod.

I've played the 'I don't have any patching game" I know how creative and intuitive i can be, but what about them ?

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For that matter, what does one do when one has started out with a patch and ball combo so tight it needs a starter rod, and drops or looses that rod?

(Just to bring it back around to starter rods)

Brokennock, why do you refuse to swab between shots? I'm curious. I mean, yeah, I'd rather not have to do it, but I do, so I do it. I've tried using a patch lube that reduces fouling(Mr.Flintlocks) and it does do that. I've taken 10-11 shots before it was obviously too crusty down at the breech end of the barrel, and I swabbed it out. But, the dry lubed patches using Ballistol and water mix have been the most accurate out of my gun. So that's what I use, and I need to swab. It just computes in my head to use the most accurate method. If I simply refused to swab, I wouldn't be.

Brokennock said:

For that matter, what does one do when one has started out with a patch and ball combo so tight it needs a starter rod, and drops or looses that rod?

(Just to bring it back around to starter rods)

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Or what do you do when your barrel is dirty and you just get the ball below the muzzle and it will go no further ?
I tried going without a ball starter in the field and found myself having to improvise, but improvising is still using a starter, so why not just carry one.
I have used a nipple wrench as a ball starter, and my flask, even whittled one once.
My short flask actually works great.

Brokennock said:

Cut a different rag or other cloth?

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Grenadier1758 said:

Used moss or some other crushable material such as hornets' nests or thin deer hide.

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Yep ! that's it Grenadier. But what if you commit and realize it's too tight ?

Carbon 6 said:

Or what do you do when your barrel is dirty and you just get the ball below the muzzle and it will go no further ?
I tried going without a ball starter in the field and found myself having to improvise, but improvising is still using a starter, so why not just carry one.
I have used a nipple wrench as a ball starter, and my flask, even whittled one once.
My short flask actually works great.

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Carbon 6 said:

Yep ! that's it Grenadier. But what if you commit and realize it's too tight ?

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I guess this is where the practice with what you will use, and how you will use it comes in. One should know ahead of time that after X number of shots, the gun won't load anymore if one has spent time at the range shooting the load one thinks they will use for an event or hunt.

I've not had the issue you described near the muzzle, but, with an old rifle I had bought used (my 1st) with a wrecked bore and a bent barrel, and recently experimenting with a new lighter load in my smoothbore, I have had the round refuse to go further a few inches from the powder. Short/ball starter won't help there, very frustrating. Lol.

Ben Meyer said:

Brokennock, why do you refuse to swab between shots? I'm curious. I mean, yeah, I'd rather not have to do it, but I do, so I do it. I've tried using a patch lube that reduces fouling(Mr.Flintlocks) and it does do that. I've taken 10-11 shots before it was obviously too crusty down at the breech end of the barrel, and I swabbed it out. But, the dry lubed patches using Ballistol and water mix have been the most accurate out of my gun. So that's what I use, and I need to swab. It just computes in my head to use the most accurate method. If I simply refused to swab, I wouldn't be.

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I'm not a minute of X-ring target shooter. Having to swab in the field, or having to carry extra items that could have been avoided is completely impractical to me. If I can get groups like this off hand at 25 yards, and slightly larger (and all within the black) offhand at 50 yards (benched groups with my hunting load at 50 yards are better than that offhand 25 yard target), that is good enough for me. Might not be good enough for others. I am willing to play with loading combinations until I can achieve this without having to swab or carry a starter. And I have been able to. I was able to do it with my .45 caliber rifle too, well those groups were much better than these shown, but I was younger with better eyes and it was a rifle.
I an constantly going over my field gear to see what I don't need or how what I do need can be carried in a period manner but in a way to reduce the number of trips my hand makes to and from the shot pouch.

I swab ‘tween shots normally. Speed is the device Satan. I spend an afternoon playing and then cleaning. Two minutes between shots don’t matter much to me. And on a hunt I take my time before putting a ball down and springing my game.

So many people today are utterly accuracy obsessed, and anything less than one hole 10 shot groups at a zillion yards is utterly unthinkably unacceptable to them. They cannot fathom how it could be acceptable to anyone. "Good enough" accuracy is a totally foreign concept.

I have never measured patch thickness. And I don't use a short starter.

I think theres a distinct difference between TARGET shooting and hunting. The goal of target shooting IS accuracy; the goal of hunting(for me at least) is meat, with the challenge of outsmartingthe quarry. I'm totally fine with "5 shots in a paper plate at 50 yds" in terms of hunting accuracy. But at the range, punching holes in paper for the sake of doing just that, I want to shoot tight sub 2" groups and in the 10 ring. Striving to get better on the range, again, to me, means improving accuracy to the point where I'm shooting the best I personally CAN. I view hunting and target shooting as being two different disciplines, and treat them as such. Of course, there are woods walks, etc that meld the two and I'm 100% happy to hit targets or ring steel doing those, where group size is irreverent.

It’s a sport like any other. Target shooting goes back at least to cave men with a spear or sling. The tech improvements starting in the middle of the nineteenth century gave rise to one hole quest.
Target was a small shield in the old days. Bigger then a buckler smaller then targ. Being able to hit a target was all that was needed military,Hunter, or self defense... even a dualist.
The traditional sights on an old ml ain’t the best. Yes there are folks that can hit the eyes of a fly on the wing at a hundred yards with such sights simple v and blade. You just have to play the game you enjoy the best.
Murphy or Crockett or even York were known for their shooting, but I wonder how they would do against some ‘blood shooters’. Would they even care?

Smokey Plainsman said:

Who the hell are you to tell me what does and doesn’t work from my own experience?? What a clown.

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Go call that kettle black mr. Pot.

Grenadier1758 said:

Used moss or some other crushable material such as hornets' nests or thin deer hide.

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I saw a guy on you-tube using corn meal over powder and shot. There’s many ways to skin a cat.

IMO: Swabbing between shots is a pain, so i won't do that. Unlike the vast majority on muzzleloader boards, i ain't a resolute marksman. Two inch groups at 50 yards is minute of deer/hog.

Because of old eyes i don't take shots with a conventional muzzleloader over 75 yards anyway. If the animal is not within my self imposed shooting range i sneak and crawl closer-after all that's the mark of a hunter.

If you don't like short starters then don't use one. i'll continue to use a short starter.

My son uses cornmeal between powder and ball in his BP revolver, and tops the cylinder off with Bore Butter.

FlinterNick said:

I saw a guy on you-tube using corn meal over powder and shot. There’s many ways to skin a cat.

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Okie Hog said:

IMO: Swabbing between shots is a pain, so i won't do that. Unlike the vast majority on muzzleloader boards, i ain't a resolute marksman. Two inch groups at 50 yards is minute of deer/hog.

Because of old eyes i don't take shots with a conventional muzzleloader over 75 yards anyway. If the animal is not within my self imposed shooting range i sneak and crawl closer-after all that's the mark of a hunter.

If you don't like short starters then don't use one. i'll continue to use a short starter.

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For my smoothies I use paper cartridges dipped in a mixture of bees wax and 1/4 walnut oil and 1/4 olive oil (walnut oil solidifies).

For the rifles, there’s not getting out of swabbing for mine, I have some older Getz barrels.

Shh

Ben Meyer said:

Brokennock, why do you refuse to swab between shots? I'm curious. I mean, yeah, I'd rather not have to do it, but I do, so I do it. I've tried using a patch lube that reduces fouling(Mr.Flintlocks) and it does do that. I've taken 10-11 shots before it was obviously too crusty down at the breech end of the barrel, and I swabbed it out. But, the dry lubed patches using Ballistol and water mix have been the most accurate out of my gun. So that's what I use, and I need to swab. It just computes in my head to use the most accurate method. If I simply refused to swab, I wouldn't be.

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Shhh! What Brokennock and many others are saying when they state that they don't wipe between shots is that they are using a very moist patch around their ball. That moist patch lubricates the barrel for the ball and wipes the fouling from the bore onto the top of the load. Sometimes being in a very humid environment helps to keep the fouling moist and many shots can be loaded before wiping the crust ring from the breech. They don't wipe between shots because they have a different procedure that works for them.

Grenadier1758 said:

Shh

Shhh! What Brokennock and many others are saying when they state that they don't wipe between shots is that they are using a very moist patch around their ball. That moist patch lubricates the barrel for the ball and wipes the fouling from the bore onto the top of the load. Sometimes being in a very humid environment helps to keep the fouling moist and many shots can be loaded before wiping the crust ring from the breech. They don't wipe between shots because they have a different procedure that works for them.

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A lot of it has to do with the style of rifling, the land and grove depth and the rate of twist.

Colerain barrels tend to not foul out due to the round bottom rifling. Hoyt and Getz both use more original style rifling which builds up fouling much more.

The build up of fouling is not a simple process that can be fixed by any one process. There's a lot of variables that effect the creation (and removal) of fouling.