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yet another ballistics topic...cant

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George

Cannon
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Discussing weird ballistics questions is a good thing, IMHO, because it makes us think about how our guns work. It forces us to consider the basics which we normally take for granted, or never really understood. There is a lot more to hitting a target than point and shoot.

Gun cant or gun tilt is not discussed much, is not even recognized as a possible problem by many of us, but it is an important idea to the really serious accuracy shooters. They will sometimes attach little bubble levels to their barrels to make absolutely certain they remain perfectly upright, never tilted even a little. Why is that? What bad stuff happens if you cant your gun?

Spence
 
Lotta "lateral dispersion" of shots with cant in my experience, and the taller the sights, the more it seems to be an issue. Never seen any numbers put on it, but I watch it really carefully when sighting in or load testing.
 
You cant say no, Semisane. Your brain is all limbered up from the uphill-downhill discussion, but it will stiffen quickly if you don't keep it busy. Besides, we may need some of your spiffy graphics. :grin:

Spence
 
OK. but don't be grumpy when you flunk the quiz at the end. :wink:

Spence
 
That's not so much ballistics as trigonometry. If you cant the barrel the center of the bore is not under the sights and the further the bullet/ball travels the worse the horizontal dispersion will be.

I've fired sporterized military rifles that had scopes mounted 1" left of the receiver top. If you are sighted at 100 yards to point of aim you may be 3" right at 200 yards. But if you sight 1" left at 100 yards you're still 1" left at 200 yards.

The closer your sights are to the bore the less cant is an issue. And it's no issue at all with a sightless smoothbore. Another reason to go with one of those. ;-)
 
Stumpkiller said:
The closer your sights are to the bore the less cant is an issue. And it's no issue at all with a sightless smoothbore. Another reason to go with one of those. ;-)
Ummmm... I always get confused when I think about the effect of sight height on a trajectory, but in this instance I don't believe it's a factor. Why would it be?

Distance and velocity are, for sure, because they effect drop, and I think the more drop there is the worse canting is.

The way I understand the mechanism, smoothbores without sights would be no different, providing the sight picture when canted is the same. Never thought about that, but I believe that's true.

Spence
 
Before I go further; I have to say most people who are not target shooters, will not find the following information very useful. If you hunt deer or other mid to large size game at ranges of no more than 50 or 60 yards, then you need not bother to read on. It won’t really matter if you shoot with the barrel level or at a cant because you are going to aim dead on and don’t care if the bullet lands two to five inches from where you aimed. The 8 to 10 inch circle that is the vital zone of a deer is big enough to take care of such variations in where the bullet will hit. Not using a cant/tilt can make a difference at 100 yards on a deer, but it seems most forum members don’t shoot at that range with their muzzle loaders and fixed sights.

Right off the bat there are two problems that come to mind that arise when using a cant, though both are related.

The first problem has to do with using adjustable sights, though we don't use them with muzzle loaders as much as modern shooters. When adjustable sights are properly mounted at Top Dead Center on the barrel and the rifle is held level, the adjustments show up as bullet hits moved straight up and down for elevation and straight side to side for windage. So it is fairly easy to dial in your groups to the center of the target AND figure out what an adjustment will do to change your shot/group location before you fire. However, when using a cant ”“ the adjustments for elevation go up and down at the ANGLE of your cant. So for example when you want to move the group higher for longer range, what happens is the groups not only go up, but also sideways a little ”“ which means it also introduces a windage change or side to side change of the group hitting the target. For a right hand shooter with a left leaning cant or tilt, that means his groups go up towards the left at the angle of his cant/tilt. That is bad enough, but what is REALLY hard to figure is how windage adjustments are going to show up in how the groups move. This windage adjustments move the groups perpendicular to the angle of your cant/tilt. They will still move side to side, but adjustment to the left will also mean the groups move down a little bit to the left and adjustments to the right mean the group goes up a little bit towards the right. This means you get some elevation difference when you just want to go from side to side. IOW, that cant or tilt makes using adjustable sights A LOT more difficult to figure out how the groups should move before you adjust elevation or windage.

Because modern High Power shooters fire at different ranges, one hugely important thing they do in practice with adjustable sights is move their sights left or right and up or down a click at a time for every range they fire and then they record how far the bullet strike moves on the target at that range. So they move the sights one click, fire and record, then two clicks fire and record, three clicks fire and record, etc. up to four to six clicks for windage and elevation. They have to do that so they will know ahead of time how much the bullet strike will move for each click or change in adjustment at each range. Even the most precise sights will NOT move the strike of the bullet exactly the same amount per click or change of elevation or windage. Muzzleloading shooters who shoot with Vernier Tang Sights will also do this for the ranges they compete. IF you shoot with a cant/tilt, then it becomes absolutely necessary you do this procedure with adjustable sights because the groups move with BOTH an elevation and windage difference per each click of either windage or elevation.

The second problem comes when you use NON Adjustable sights like most of us use on traditional muzzleloaders. When we try to estimate in our minds how much we have to hold high/low or left right at different ranges or for different light or wind conditions to hit the center of the target, we use what is commonly called “Kentucky Windage and Elevation.” This just means we are estimating how much we have to hold left/right or up and down from our normal sight picture. For example, when the wind starts blowing from the left to the right, we know we have to align the sight to the left of where we normally do, so the bullet hits the center of the target. The harder the wind blows and the further distance to the target, the more we have to align the sight to the left when we shoot so the bullet hits the center of the target. That is difficult enough to estimate how far to the left you have to hold for that wind blowing, but ALSO we cannot forget that most guns don’t shoot “laser straight” and things get interesting when shooting 75/100 yards or more. At those ranges and beyond and depending on the individual barrel, sights and shooter; the strike of the bullet will start moving to the left or right when there is no wind blowing. This is because the sights can never be perfectly aligned with the bore as they are on top of the barrel. So let’s say you know that your rifle shoots an inch to the right at 75 yards and an inch and a half or two inches at 100 yards from your 50 yard groups. So with nonadjustable sights, you have to hold a bit to the left for those ranges even where there is no wind blowing. When the wind blows and depending on how hard the wind blows from the left, you have to hold the sights even further to the left to get the bullet to hit in the center of the target. This is difficult enough to do when we hold the barrel level and only have to think about the shots moving left/right. BUT when you shoot with a cant/tilt, that has an elevation change that goes along with a windage change, it makes it much harder to estimate where you have to hold so the shot will hit the center of the target. It can quickly become mind boggling trying to estimate where you have hold off your normal sight picture for wind conditions and different distances. Most ML shooters don’t bother using a different hold for elevation because they don’t shoot at distances far enough. So I will only say that it is more difficult to figure out where to aim when using a cant/tilt when you go beyond 100 yards.

Gus
 
George said:
Ummmm... I always get confused when I think about the effect of sight height on a trajectory, but in this instance I don't believe it's a factor. Why would it be?

You asked "What bad stuff happens if you can your gun?" Not whether it effected trajectory. It changes where the bullet will strike if you sighted in and then cant the rifle differently for a subsequent shot.

You get in the same problem when using a scope if your crosshairs are not perfectly vertical over the bore. It's like building wind-drift into the sights regulation.

Think about it. If your sights are 1" above the bore and you cant the rifle 5° you have shifted the point of impact (where the sights are aligned) twice as much at the impact point downrange as if they were 1/2" above the bore. Actually, you have moved the bore off to either side because your are still sighting at the target.

Hold your arm out with your thumb sticking up. Now say your arm is the barrel and your thumb the front sight. Now twist your arm a bit. If your thumb sight is regulated to hit where the barrel points the longer your thumb the worse tipping it to one side will alter your impact. If your thumb were lower the movement off alignment would be proportionally less. The bullet travels the same ballistic path either way, gravity will always pull it towards the center of the Earth no matter how you hold the rifle, but where you "think" it will strike based on your sight picture will be much different.

It will also change the trajectory mid range depending on where you are sighted. A ball crosses the line of sight around 20 to 25 yards and then comes back down to meet it at 100 yards if that is where your are sighted in. That 20 to 25 yard "zero" will shift depending how high your sights are above the bore. That's one of the (many) factors to why some folks can sight at 25 yards and be on at 100 yards and some won't be.

I used to shoot single pin sight target archery in college. In that case the pin is maybe four inches over the arrow and my eye (the rear sight) is 3" over the arrow at my anchor. If the bow were canted even a tiny bit it would be obvious at 20 yards downrange.
 
The "modern mindset" of some will complicate things that aren't complicated. Canting or tilting the rifle isn't a problem for most. Why....because it doesn't make any practical difference in most shooting. That's why it's hardly ever discussed.

I'm not even aware while "head hunting" squirrels if the rifle is canted somewhat. Again. why? Same answer...it doesn't make any practical difference.

Canting or tilting problems aren't practical problems...so why bother w/ them? Got some other concerns asre MLers and canting certainly isn't one of them....just like to keep things simple.....Fred
 
Don't know about you, but when I cant a gun I rotate it around the line of sight. I keep the sights aligned with the X. If I rotate the rifle, I'm rotating the line of bore, which isn't pointed at the X, in an arc/circle, but the line of sight always stays pointed at the X.

Spence
 
flehto said:
Theoretical problems aren't practical problems...so why bother w/ them? Got some other concerns asre MLers and canting isn't one of them....just like to keep things simple.....Fred
That's certainly one acceptable attitude, Fred, but it's not mine. I like to know how things work, whether they are of any practical importance or not. Gives an old man something to do to keep from being bored.

Spence
 
When I'm aiming at a squirrel's head, all I do is align the sights and bingo...a headless squirrel....no other concerns are present when doing this....Fred
 
George said:
Don't know about you, but when I cant a gun I rotate it around the line of sight. I keep the sights aligned with the X. If I rotate the rifle, I'm rotating the line of bore, which isn't pointed at the X, in an arc/circle, but the line of sight always stays pointed at the X.

Spence

Wrong.....
you can't rotate one line without affecting the other.
Remember...your shooting angle is a triangle and if you rotate a triangle on the axis of one line....the other two move.
 
Don't disagree that it rotates around the line of sight. But unless your rifle can throw a curve it will be a different point of impact downrange.

Probably won't be much difference but it will be measureable. Will it cause you to miss deer at round-ball ranges. Nope. But maybe a woodchuck if you're sighted at 85 yards and he's thumbing his nose at you at 125 yards.

Heck, I see guys shooting their pistols held sideways all the time so I guess it works in the field.
 
I was thinking about canting my gun when shooting after it had already been correctly sighted in, and on a calm day. Easier for me to keep all the ducks in a row when working on such problems if I eliminate all extraneous elements, concentrate on the basics.

That way, shooting conditions, type of sight, type of rifle, etc., etc., don't clutter my old brain.

For instance, the basic problem involves the line of sight, but not the method you used to establish it. Adjustable, fixed, iron, aperture, scope, it doesn't matter, they are only there to establish the line of sight, don't enter into the equation after that, as far as I can see. The best modern rifle built, with the best scope, will have the same problems when shot canted as my original smooth rifle with only a front bead, because its the basic elements of the flight of bullets we are thinking of. Line of bore, line of sight, velocity, drop and the compensation for it, drag, etc., those are the things you have to use to solve such problems, IMHO.

Spence
 
Using a cant on a muzzle loading rifle to shoot tree rats doesn't mean anything, because the range of the shot is so short. Oak Trees grow from 40 to 100 feet tall and the tree rats don't go all the way to the top of the tree. So we are talking about shots that only go from less than 5 yards to maybe 30 yards at the very most.

When I used to hunt raccoons and we shot them out of trees, I did it with a .22 caliber pistol. The pistol had adjustable sights and I sighted it at 25 yards and held dead center for each shot. Took 47 raccoon with 49 shots.

With a muzzleloading rifle, the MUCH longer sight radius gives you a much more precise alignment of the sights, so there is no need to hold off unless the wind is blowing extremely hard - and it doesn't matter if you use a cant or not.

Gus
 
George said:
I was thinking about canting my gun when shooting after it had already been correctly sighted in, and on a calm day. Easier for me to keep all the ducks in a row when working on such problems if I eliminate all extraneous elements, concentrate on the basics.


Spence

What kind of range and how much accuracy do you require for shooting?

Gus
 
Hey spence.....

Pretend your landing your Stearman....

The 3 angles are pitch, yaw and roll.
If you're on a glide path for landing and you change one of the angles....you'll miss the runway..
 

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