Early Navy Arms Brown Bess: who made it?

Nice synopsis Dave,
British ordnance also produced the 1757/59 marine and militia musket with a 42" barrel and simplified hardware. The pattern 1769 short land musket was also based on this marine and militia musket as well as the dragoon carbine. I am currently refurbishing a Pedersoli Brown Bess for a member of Lamb's Artillery. It is an older Pedersoli made during the 1970s when they "kinda sorta" got the thin lock moldings about right. Unfortunately, the buttplate is 3/8-1/2" too short compared with the originals. That may not sound like much but it makes the butt stock look too small proportionally relative to the size of the lock area. Anyway, it looks better than it did before. I'll post some photos soon.

dave

I concur, good synopsis, Dave,

The only notable assemblage of British Regular forces using short 42" barreled muskets during the AWI, were the 400 to 600 man British 1st Marines (1st and 2nd Battalions) at the Battle of Breed's (Bunker) Hill. However, these were not Short Land Pattern Muskets, but rather Marine and Militia Pattern Muskets.

Gus

Hi Gus!,
I have a Miroku Bess that I am going to turn into a good copy of the 1759 Marine and Militia musket. The hardware can be modified correctly although I may have to replace the butt plate for a taller one and definitely the trigger guard. I may just beat the manure out of the existing plate to extend the length to 5 1/8". Everything else, minus the thumb plate should work. I also will weld over the stamped crown and tower marks and then engrave my own proper marks. It will be fun. I have a good English walnut blank coming from Ron Scott. I hope to make a good copy of a gun carried by Pitcairn's marines.

dave

First, you mantioned Navy Arms in the title but not in the post. Is it marked "Navy Arms" anywhere on teh gun? The earliest Besses from Navy Arms came it two types. The Pedersoli was a .75 bore with and without sling swivels...why this was so no one seems to be able to answer now. It's actual name was "Navy Arms Co. Brown Bess Musket Model 1776", followed shortly by the "Navy Arms Co. Brown Bess Carbine Model 1777". This second one was a carbine version with a 31" barrel. They also marketed another version called "Navy Arms Co. Model 1778 Brown Bess" which was an American-made version but with a .70 bore. I've asked Navy Arms a couple times why but nobody working there now has a clue. They can't even say who made the "American-made" guns. Oh well, such is life! :wink: :haha:

Dave Person said:

Hi Gus!,
I have a Miroku Bess that I am going to turn into a good copy of the 1759 Marine and Militia musket. The hardware can be modified correctly although I may have to replace the butt plate for a taller one and definitely the trigger guard. I may just beat the manure out of the existing plate to extend the length to 5 1/8". Everything else, minus the thumb plate should work. I also will weld over the stamped crown and tower marks and then engrave my own proper marks. It will be fun. I have a good English walnut blank coming from Ron Scott. I hope to make a good copy of a gun carried by Pitcairn's marines.

dave

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Hi Dave!

OK, I am turning green with envy. :grin:

Have you thought about just silver soldering a longer piece onto the buttplate and modifying it to shape?

Are you going to get the replacement trigger guard from Dyson, Blackley's or TRS and then modify it to shape?

I am almost afraid to ask what a good English Walnut blank is running for these days.

I am VERY much looking forward to seeing pictures when you finish the gun!!!

Gus

Wes/Tex said:

They also marketed another version called "Navy Arms Co. Model 1778 Brown Bess" which was an American-made version but with a .70 bore. I've asked Navy Arms a couple times why but nobody working there now has a clue. They can't even say who made the "American-made" guns. Oh well, such is life! :wink: :haha:

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Wes,

I began working the "Navy Arms Booth" at the NSSA Spring Championships in 1974 and I only barely remember that model, though we did not sell them at Winchester, VA. (I purchased the Carbine in 1975 as the closest thing commonly available to what a Continental Marine Sergeant would have carried, even though the barrel was too short.)

The one person I know who may remember is Richard Beauchamp. Have you tried asking him? http://www.flintlocksetc.com/

Gus

Thanks..will keep trying. Their E-mail doesn't seem to be working at present.

Hi Gus,
The guard looks to be the same used on most long and short land muskets, so it should be easily available. The butt plate will likely come from TRS. I would have to lengthen both the toe and tang of the existing Miroku or Pedersoli plates. I'll build the 1759 version with tailpipe,muzzle cap, and steel rammer. I think there is one of these in the Neumann collection at Valley Forge, which I will go see before getting started. I am hoping Ticonderoga might have one, which is easier for me to visit, but I have yet to call them. The plain musket-grade English walnut stock blank will come from Ron Scott and should cost about $100. It will be a fun project but I won't get to it until next year. I just refurbished a Pedersoli short land, pictures of which I will post soon.

dave

So....wahkahchim What is it? You started the thread, many have responded. Is it Italian or Japanese?

Wes/Tex said:

Thanks..will keep trying. Their E-mail doesn't seem to be working at present.

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I haven't called Richard for quite a while, but you might try calling him for a quicker response.

(413) 698-3822

Gus

Dave Person said:

Hi Gus,
The guard looks to be the same used on most long and short land muskets, so it should be easily available. The butt plate will likely come from TRS. I would have to lengthen both the toe and tang of the existing Miroku or Pedersoli plates. I'll build the 1759 version with tailpipe,muzzle cap, and steel rammer. I think there is one of these in the Neumann collection at Valley Forge, which I will go see before getting started. I am hoping Ticonderoga might have one, which is easier for me to visit, but I have yet to call them. The plain musket-grade English walnut stock blank will come from Ron Scott and should cost about $100. It will be a fun project but I won't get to it until next year. I just refurbished a Pedersoli short land, pictures of which I will post soon.

dave

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Dave,

You are probably familiar with Blackley's from the UK, but if not, here are their links to the Trigger guards and Butt plates. I think the description on the website of the Butt Plates got mixed up, though. I haven't been to the Annual Baltimore Antique Gun Show in about 5 years while my eyes were messed up, but they usually had a table there and always had Brown Bess and other parts with them. Blackley's Bess parts are excellent. Erik Goldstein, - Curator, Mechanical Arts and Numismatics at Colonial Williamsburg, also recommends those parts when I spoke to him.

Butt Plates https://www.blackleyandson.com/acatalog/Butt_plates.html

Trigger Guards (Both P 1756 and Long Land) https://www.blackleyandson.com/acatalog/Trigger_guards.html

I don't remember a Marine and Militia Musket at Valley Forge, but it is possible I missed it. I know I was enamored with their Wilson Commercial Musket, similar to the one Ticonderoga somewhat recently also procured. If you do get to Valley Forge, perhaps you could look at the Virginia Rifle on the bottom in the case that has long guns displayed horizontally, going down the case. It has an octagon to round barrel, barrel wedges instead of pins and what looked to me like a lower grade lock that what should have been on the rifle. I would enjoy reading your impression of that rifle.

The English Walnut Blank you mentioned seems extremely reasonable, if not down right cheap. GOOD for you!! Looking forward to the pics of the Pedersoli you refurbished!!

Gus

Hi Gus,
Yes, I know Kevin Blackley via phone and internet. I've purchased quite a few casting sets from him. My Wogden duelers have locks built from his castings. I will get to VF over the next few months. I am thinking of a Christmas-time visit to VF, Winterthur, Hagely, and Longwood Gardens. Should be fun.

Take care,
dave

Don't know if anyone's really all that interested since if you've seen one, you've pretty much seen them all but, here are a couple of pictures of my Miroku Brown Bess. In 1976 i payed the astronomical (to me at the time) cost of $150 fot it. I believe the Italian ones were in the range of $275-300. It has been an awesome shooter over the years. Hard earned money very well spent...Mick C

The only notable assemblage of British Regular forces using short 42" barreled muskets during the AWI, were the 400 to 600 man British 1st Marines (1st and 2nd Battalions) at the Battle of Breed's (Bunker) Hill. However, these were not Short Land Pattern Muskets, but rather Marine and Militia Pattern Muskets.

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I'm not fully versed on how many were shortened, and also have no idea about lengths of barrels in some colonial armories....Maryland lists "old" and "new" muskets but doesn't specify what the hϵɭɭ that means. I also have spoken to some folks who seem well versed in the history of the 42nd and 71st Highland regiments, and they told me the Highlanders started shortening their muskets prior to the AWI..., couldn't get a definite reference, and one fellow said it was in England, but they couldn't find out if those companies were shipped to the Colonies or stayed at home to repel the French invasion (which never came).

:idunno:

LD

Hi,
According to Bailey, the 42nd regiment arrived in New York in 1776 with model 1769 short land pattern muskets. The 71st highlanders also were issued short land muskets and one of those is in the Neumann collection. Again according to Bailey, it is likely that the 4000-5000 troops sent to North America during the early days of the AWI from the Irish Establishment were armed with 1769 short land muskets, some of which may have been marked "Dublin Castle". The Pedersoli Bess (at least the older version that I am familiar with) is a pattern 1769/75. It has the older lock with 1 screw showing behind the older style flintcock and it does not include the Pratt second ramrod thimble, features included in the 1777 pattern musket. Consequently, the Pedersoli Bess such as it is, is appropriate for at least some AWI reenactor units.

dave

Why yes you are indeed correct , first units already posted in the colonies were most likely armed with LLP ,except said Marines , as other Rgts arrived they were almost all issued SLP , the exception to this rule is of course the Rgts of Foot Guards who continued to carry the LLP as a symbol of their status and the manufacture of the LLP was maintained to arm them when replacement issues were required .It is also worth noting that at this point in time other British military and private troops were already carrying the 39"muskets . Also of note most of the SLPs kicking around the US with prevalence to the AWI are surrender muskets from Saratoga .

It is good to go ,a reasonable quality gun that will suit well to a lot of purposes ,in my opinion not quite as good as a Pedersoli but still good and much loved and revered by those who own one on these forums ,you must make allowences for your fellow yanks getting excited about Besses

The Pedersoli Bess (at least the older version that I am familiar with) is a pattern 1769/75. It has the older lock with 1 screw showing behind the older style flintcock and it does not include the Pratt second ramrod thimble, features included in the 1777 pattern musket. Consequently, the Pedersoli Bess such as it is, is appropriate for at least some AWI reenactor units.

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Well the "older lock" still had some of the "banana" shape as well as the screw location that you've mentioned, I've read, plus the side plate was the old, rounded style. For Pedersoli to actually be correct, they need two cosmetic changes, the lock and the side plate. (Well AND to change the engraving on the lock).

LD

Dave Person said:

Hi,
According to Bailey, the 42nd regiment arrived in New York in 1776 with model 1769 short land pattern muskets. The 71st highlanders also were issued short land muskets and one of those is in the Neumann collection. Again according to Bailey, it is likely that the 4000-5000 troops sent to North America during the early days of the AWI from the Irish Establishment were armed with 1769 short land muskets, some of which may have been marked "Dublin Castle". The Pedersoli Bess (at least the older version that I am familiar with) is a pattern 1769/75. It has the older lock with 1 screw showing behind the older style flintcock and it does not include the Pratt second ramrod thimble, features included in the 1777 pattern musket. Consequently, the Pedersoli Bess such as it is, is appropriate for at least some AWI reenactor units.

dave

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When I purchased my latest Pedersoli around 2000, I was a Private Soldier in the Major's Coy of the 42nd RHR. Our research then was that the Guards Company may or even probably still had LLP's, when the Regiment came over, but we weren't sure about the Major's Company - being the second senior Company. Of course back then and outside of custom made guns, no one was making an LLP, so most folks carried a Pedersoli or Japanese Bess.

I wish Bailey had more examples of Irish made Bess's in his books, but at least there are a couple of nice examples in The Brown Bess by Goldstein and Mowbray. The Irish guns have some interesting variations.

Gus

Loyalist Dave said:

Well the "older lock" still had some of the "banana" shape as well as the screw location that you've mentioned, I've read, plus the side plate was the old, rounded style. For Pedersoli to actually be correct, they need two cosmetic changes, the lock and the side plate. (Well AND to change the engraving on the lock).

LD

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Dave,

There is interesting discussion on the flat vs rounded side plates of the P1769 SLP's in The Brown Bess by Goldstein and Mowbray. Have you had a chance to read it?

Gus