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Losing priming from pan

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bryon knapp

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I have a charleville , Indian made. I have had the lock professionaly worked and tuned. However there is a tiny gap between the pan and frizzen that leaks priming powder. If I prime, then March or maneuver... It all falls out. The pan is brass, I was thinking of using of using jb weld to seal the gap using a very thin bead... Or maybe even high temp silicone??? Any suggestions are appreciated. It's an Indian lock and the gap has been fixed as much as it can be do to other issues with the lock
 
IMO, the best fix would be to solder a brass plate over the pan, then file it down to re-fit the frizzen cover. J&B Weld would probably work if you don't mind the visual distraction.
 
This was an all too common problem with Japanese made Besses and even some Pedersoli Besses when I did a Private Soldier in the 42nd RHR.

Since I fixed seven or eight of them and even on my own Pedersoli Bess, here is what I learned from doing it.

1. The bottom of the "U" shaped steel (frizzen) has to be FLAT. The best way to do that, because the steel is hardened, is to wrap 150 or 180 grit Emory Cloth (sandpaper for metal) around a FLAT file that is wider than the width of the "U" shape and sand it flat. Make SURE the "arms" or projections ahead of the pan cover area of the frizzen are not contacting the pan. I usually filed/sanded them more, so they would not interfere with the pan cover portion of the frizzen fitting the pan. You have to take the frizzen/steel off the lock to do this and place the long portion of the frizzen in a padded vise so you can work on the bottom of the frizzen - which now is in an upright position.

2. After you get the bottom of the Frizzen flattened and have filed sanded more clearance for the "arms" or bridle extensions, then you fit that to the pan on the lockplate. I did that by using a layer of Dykem layout dye on the top of the pan. Then I put just the frizzen and screw on the lockplate. I smacked the top of the frizzen with a soft mallet or block of wood so the bottom of the frizzen would mark the Layout Dye where it contacted. Then I filed the pan to fit. You have to continue using Layout Dye, smacking it with a soft mallet and filing the pan until most of the bottom of the frizzen comes in contact with the top of the pan.

This is NOT and easy job if you do not know how to file FLAT on metal. It also takes some time depending on how much metal you have to remove from the bottom of the frizzen and top of the pan and of course your own ability to do the work. This sort of work was usually done by the Regimental Artificer/Armorer - so don't feel bad if you can't do the work and need someone else to do it.

Gus
 
P.S. to my post above.

I forgot to mention that if the "internal" side of the lockplate does not fit tight against the barrel, you have to file adjust the lockplate first, before doing the work to the frizzen and pan.

Gus
 
Japan and frozen surfaces are both flat. The lock has been professionally tuned reworked filed shaved sanded etc etc etc however this is an issue that cannot be fixed by any further sanding filing for reshaping. I don't personally care about having to look at the JB Weld I would rather have the powder stay in the pan
 
I am using 3f . unfortunately I have lots of 3f powder. And 2f isn't easily obtained in NY.I don't even know if you can have bp shipped to NY anymore.not to mention hazmat fees. I would be better off with the jb weld I think.
 
May work for a while -- I would think that the jet of hot gas from the touch hole would burn the JB Weld away after a days shooting :hmm: or maybe not. The only way you will know for sure is to try it :hmm: . On the other hand soldering on a brass shim would always be there until you un-solder it.
 
flintlock 1776 said:
I am using 3f . unfortunately I have lots of 3f powder. And 2f isn't easily obtained in NY.I don't even know if you can have bp shipped to NY anymore.not to mention hazmat fees. I would be better off with the jb weld I think.

OK, I guess I just plain do not understand. If the lock was professionally done and the bottom of the frizzen was carefully fitted to the top of the pan, then why do you need JB Weld?

Gus
 
My guess is there is only so much that can be done to correct the problem and the locksmith did the best he could with what he had to work with.

That said, IMO, no good locksmith would do as I'm about to suggest.

I would remove the frizzen, springs, tumbler etc.

I would then lightly file the top surface of the pan to make sure it was clean, bare metal.

Then, I would heat the pan with a propane torch with its flame set about as low as possible.

After fluxing the surface with an acid flux, I would carefully build up a layer of soft solder on the entire surface.

With soft solder, there is a narrow temperature range where the solder will become soft and can be applied rather thick. This is know as the solders "solidus" range. For 50/50 solder it is between 361°F and 421°F. At 421°F the solder turns into a liquid.
With the solder in this temperature range it will adhere to the other solder so building its thickness up is possible.

(By the way, the 80Pb-20Sn solder is what was once used to "lead in" auto bodies. Its solidus temperature range is between 361°F and 535°F giving a much wider temperature range to work in.

We used to build up layers of it and actually push them around with a wooden blade to form and smooth them out when leading in custom car bodies.

It might be found at some of the old fashioned auto body or custom auto shops.)

This will take a bit of patience but I would try to build up at least 1/16" thickness of solder over the entire surface of the pan.

Once done, I would refit the frizzen with its screw and begin the slow task of using a transfer medium like in-letting black to find the places where there was interference with the pan lid/frizzen and slowly filing away the excess solder.

If all goes well, I will end up with areas where all of the solder has been removed and other areas where a thin coating of solder remains. (The fact that there will be areas where all of the solder is totally removed is the reason I would not try to use the brass shim method).

Because it's impossible to blue or brown solder I would leave the entire top of the pan in the white.
 
When the JB weld lets go it is going to travel somewhere........ not cool IMHO.

To fix it the screw hole in the frizzen needs to be filled the pan fitted and then the hole re drilled. Or purchase a new frizzen, make sure it seals the pan and drill for the screw.

Who ever did the work on the lock and gave it back to you like that is not someone to patronize again. (unless you balked at them charging you for the job or instructed them not to)

If I was you I'd call the whole tuning suspect and confirm for your self that the sear holds the tumbler the way it should etc.

I recently sent a lock out to have this same problem rectified. Total cost including frizzen 35 bucks. Bargain.

Zonie, I used a variation of the solder method. Worked like a charm. I could put water in the pan with the lock off and canted and it would hold the water over night!
 
You could even get that solder going around the pan lip & then while still soft lower the frizzen onto it. You would thereby get a perfect fit that only needed the inside & outside edges cleaned up of overflowed solder.
O.
 
Sounds like the professional wasn't...

Either replace the lock or replace the defective part, JB is great stuff but it doesn't belong on a lock..
 
Are you sure the flint isn't touching the frizzen and holding it
off the pan?
 
Vern , iithat is something I have checked and is OK. Also to others, I don't feel that it's fair to negatively discuss the person that did the work. They are a member of this forum , and he did an amazing job. He turned a lock that didn't even spark into a working piece of equipment. Also I was told of the issue with the screw home, and the pan fit and I told him not to worry about it as long as the lock functioned and was safe. I'm just merely looking for something possibly correct the pan fit. I like the idea of the solder, I think I will give that a try. Out of idle curiosity a poster said that when the jb weld lets go it got to go somewhere. How would jb weld let go? If it's only sitting on the top edge of the pan, there's no pressure to blow it out...
 
flintlock 1776 said:
Out of idle curiosity a poster said that when the jb weld lets go it got to go somewhere. How would jb weld let go? If it's only sitting on the top edge of the pan, there's no pressure to blow it out...

Hot gas, from the powder burning in the barrel, comes out the vent hole when a flintlock is fired until the ball exits the muzzle. It is not as much when firing blanks, though, because more gas escapes forward in the barrel when there is no ball or shot load to restrict the gas.

As an extreme example, I think it is in Colonial Frontier Guns by Hamilton, where an original lockplate was excavated that had the bottom of the pan burnt out from the effects of the vent hole gas. It had been repaired using brass braze and it was used until the vent hole gas burnt through the brazed repair, before the lockplate was discarded.

If/when the hot gas from the vent hole gets between the pan and the JB weld, it will eventually cause the JB Weld to loosen and come off. If that happens when you are firing the gun, any JB Weld that comes off will become a projectile accelerated by the vent hole gas. That would definitely not be something one would want in their eye or the eye of the person to their immediate right when firing in line during a reenactment.

Gus
 
The lock may have been professionally tuned, but you'll never know the actual skill level of the guy doing the stock inletting :doh: Is the pan flush with the lockplate, or is there actually a gap that needs filling in? Before trying all those gyrations soldering, and filling in the pan edge, how about looking at the placement of the lock in the wood? Can it be inlet a little deeper so as to sit flush with the barrel? If not, I'd just use some sheet lead shims to fill in the gap. They're easy to make and trim to fit, when worn you just throw them into the lead pot & install another.
 
I see what your saying gus, and I hadn't thought of that. That's def not something I would want to be responsible for. So I guess my option at this piney is to leave it alone or have someone build up the pan with solder. Unfortunately this is an Indian made fun and you can only also so much lipstick on a pig. Its not perfect but I like it well enough.
 
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