SturdyTradition pocket knife

This is my approach to slot cutting. Sawzall blade guided in hardened steel slots much like a miter box. It is adjustable side ways, fore and aft. Center marks left from the lath points are aligned to the slots, and the piece is locked in place and hand sawed. Shown is just a piece of broom handle as an example of how it sets up. The slot guides are hardened 01 steel screwed to angle iron.

Well ya ask a Q here, and you are bound to lean some really cool things :hatsoff:

I did find an old knife that is purported to be from the 1800s, I don't think I'll plunk down the almost $300 it would take to get the original. Hate to spend that and find it is just a wall hanger and too loose or warn out to use anymore.

Anyway here is the folder that caught my fancy.

***Notice the striker for fire starting***
http://www.themanualofarms.com/store/comersus_viewItem.asp?idProduct=772

1800's I could accept. 18th c., not so much without strong provenance. Could be, but I would beware without at least seeing others like it with good proof of that period.

My guess would be that knife is early 20th century, but I am certainly no expert on the matter. In any event the $300 would get you close to a very nice custom folder that would be period correct.

On the slot issue, the curator at Valley Forge said the bottom (top) of the slot from front to back was flat- like it had been sawn, the only issue was this V shape. I myself am comfortable with a straight or V slot because the V mentioned was only on the two knives they had at Valley Forge so there is danger in assuming all such knives had this V shape. He gave me the millimeters on the slot angle which I have since squirreled away somewhere I can't recall but most would start in the front right at the top and then angle back to end at about a half way point or less- when viewed from the back. In other words not much wood above the slot. This type of slot also meant you couldn't have a very high or upswept point on the blade or the point would be above the slot.
On the thinner sheet metal used as the ferrule in front. One issue I have is that not much material - wood or metal- is there to stop the blade rotation. I may be wrong but I think on a few originals this area got indented or worn over time and then the blade stopped in a higher than desired position.
How to make???? I thought a cross pin could probably be run through the handle to also help stop the blade and once covered by the ferrule- not seen from the outside. If positioned high enough- hopefully not seen while looking into the slot.
Finally, there is another metal ferrule type penny knife taken from a wounded British Officer at Bunker Hill and held by the Lexington Historical Society. It is smaller than the William Clark knife that had about a 4 1/2" blade. I think the Bunker Hill had around a 3" blade. I wanted emailed photos and most folks have been pretty good on helping me out but the folks at the Lexington Historical Society wanted $100 for ONE IMAGE so I never followed up- too bad because it is a valuable historical link. If anyone lives in Eastern Massachusetts and has seen that knife- any details would be welcomed.

Wick Ellerbe said:

1800's I could accept. 18th c., not so much without strong provenance. Could be, but I would beware without at least seeing others like it with good proof of that period.

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Good catch. I really never thought of it as an 18th c. But that is how they listed it, isn't it. I guess I thought of it a dating mid 1800s 30s 40s 50s

Wick that is a neat fixture and probably pretty close to what the original makers probably used. Might have to try building one of those.

On your penny knives do you run the slot completely through the length of the handle? I normally have mine terminate about the center of the ball grip.

I use a section of electrical conduit with the galvanize ground off for the bolster, and lathe cut a shoulder stop on the front part of the grip for it. I saw the slot from the rear lathe center mark, through the shouldered front section until the slot stops where the shoulder begins.

I've only made a couple but that's what I also used for the ferrules (conduit). So far they have held the blades well with no wear. If I make one with thin sheet metal I'll probably inlet a stop of some sort at the top to keep the blade straight. I think if a shallow groove is cut top down, just enough to fit in a cross pin, and positioned so the back of the tang hits the pin- that would work, if the groove was shallow enough to stay above the handle slot- you won't be able to see it once the ferrule is in place.
Hope I explained my idea clearly.

I've only made a couple but that's what I also used for the ferrules (conduit). So far they have held the blades well with no wear. If I make one with thin sheet metal I'll probably inlet a stop of some sort at the top to keep the blade straight. I think if a shallow groove is cut top down, just enough to fit in a cross pin, and positioned so the back of the tang hits the pin- that would work, if the groove was shallow enough to stay above the handle slot- you won't be able to see it once the ferrule is in place.
Hope I explained my idea clearly.

I've only made a couple but that's what I also used for the ferrules (conduit). So far they have held the blades well with no wear. If I make one with thin sheet metal I'll probably inlet a stop of some sort at the top to keep the blade straight. I think if a shallow groove is cut top down, just enough to fit in a cross pin, and positioned so the back of the tang hits the pin- that would work, if the groove was shallow enough to stay above the handle slot- you won't be able to see it once the ferrule is in place.
Hope I explained my idea clearly.

Sorry, didn't realize I posted three times. My mind must be .......... :idunno:

Here is another maker. He has documentation for all of his work.
http://ironjohnlogan.com/outdoor-knives

Foster From Flint

Uncle Pig said:

Here is another maker. He has documentation for all of his work.
http://ironjohnlogan.com/outdoor-knives

Foster From Flint

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Pretty ordinary looking knives at extraordinary prices, IMHO. But, it is free enterprise. If he can get the price, more power to him. I'm not real impressed.

I totally agree 76. See, sometimes we can agree.

Uncle Pig: if you can get the documentation please post- he is obviously a skilled maker and turned out a good knife but none of them look like any originals I've ever seen.

I haven't really looked at it, and I'm not going to comment on the knifemaker's website or his work.

But, for knives or anything else, if one is looking for "historical accuracy", I think everyone would be better off, and the hobby would progress, if people stopped simply taking the word of a vendor or craftsman when they say their stuff is historically accurate or documented. Everyone should do their own research and learn for themselves what is authentic (and what is not), then seek out craftsmen who produce their items in an authentic manner. :wink:

As a general rule I never criticize other's work and the knives ARE of good looking quality but off hand the nail nicks look like they are ground from a milling machine and if you look at old originals one side of the nick might be deeper than another and since the blades back then were forged I think the nicks were stamped, which would explain placements not exact from blade to blade or one side deeper than the other, etc. The blade tapers were usually continual from shoulder or tang to tip whereas a lot of knives today have blades of an even thickness for say half the distance and then taper to the tip. The handle material- I'm not sure about.
Finally, we are all on our own journeys; what might be important to one person may not matter to another. My only point is trying to save someone from paying a lot for a knife they think is PC when there are some issues.
Unfortunately, I don't know anyone making a pc folder with a back spring in which all the traditional methods were used- such as a forged blade, properly checkered bone scales, stamped nicks, etc. etc. There are however some very good friction folders and penny knives being made and so if PC is a big issue, a person might be better off with an accurate friction folder or penny knife. William Clark of Lewis & Clark fame used a penny knife and he later on was the Territorial Governor of the Missouri Territory and Far West so a penny knife ought to be considered as pc for almost all time periods pre-1840.
On the other hand, if what you want is "just" a good knife- the ones shown are certainly of good quality. I think what the maker might have meant was the basic appearance is based on historical examples but in detail it isn't exact. BUT, I could be wrong, that's why I asked about the documentation.

Check Kyle Willyards site Dave. He is making folders now. Some anyway. I believe you will find them correct, but I am no expert on the folders. I would value your opinion on them though. I do know Kyle did a lot of research before making any, but he may have missed something.

Well, I'm certainly no expert. A lot of the "originals" I came across that I thought I could copy- ended up I found out the museums had the dates wrong and they were post 1840. The other issue is pre-1840 "gentlemen's" folding knives with engraved bolsters, mother of pearl scales, etc.- they may be pre-1840 but probably not something a long hunter or mountain man would be carrying. These "gentlemen's" folders are more of an issue than may appear because they got treated right and they have survived whereas the "using" folders are mostly gone.
So far, I think in a general sense the liner and bolsters can be integral and of iron. They can be a separate iron liner and a short shoulder or front bolster of iron. They can be plain or with one or two grooved lines that are a crude decoration. As one gets into the 1800's I'd say a brass or iron liner with an "applied" brass bolster (they are in Smith's 1816 Key) start to become more common. Once again, for the common man either plain or maybe 1-3 grooved lines for decoration.
I'm told George Washington had a Barlow with him when he crossed the Delaware. The only pre-1840 Barlow photo I've seen was unusual. The front of the bolster wasn't any thicker than the rear liner portion, the bolster then became more thick towards the scale. At the scale the iron then thinned to about the thickness at the front- if that makes sense. And bone scales.
On the scales, for the common man- a lot of bone, plain or with crude checkering of parallel lines or skip lines (crisscross), or scales of horn. Some of wood- maybe.
All this is just my overall impression- a whole new world for me that I've really just started exploring.
For anyone interested, the kicks seem to be square whereas today they are rounded. The ricasso (sic?)area seems very short, the edge goes almost to the front bolster. Willow leaf or blunt tips, stamped nail nicks, maker's name stamped on blade about where the G-Crown-R type stamps appear on scalpers and butchers. Square tangs (clean and square joint) were maybe 10 % of the output.
Incidentally I "cheated" on one of these square tangs. They are sort of difficult to make and as I understand the mark of the better cutlers. If you put a nub on the bottom of the spring, you can then slowly grind down the nub- which lowers the blade into the slot- until you get it just right. If this nub slants towards the rear in a stretched out manner it is mostly invisible in looking into the slot.
I'd sure appreciate any input from anyone on these details. As I said, what I am stating here are my impressions so far.