Search for Trade Gun

Artificer said:

Then there is another side that says if they needed a sling, they tied on a piece of rope, leather or woven material. This because there is no evidence a permanent sling was ever used on a Trade Gun.

This side is applying the Principle of Occam's Razor.

Gus

Click to expand...

Are you saying that in 300 years no one put a permanent sling on a trade gun ??? ......not one person.. or just that you can't find any evidence?

How do define a trade gun?
The fur trade was huge....the amount of guns traded, huge........
The amount of surviving evidence is almost non-existent in comparison to the volume traded.

colorado clyde said:

How do define a trade gun?

Click to expand...

I would say that the majority of the Buckskinning and Reenacting/Living History hobby, as well as a good portion of the North American museum community uses the words "Trade Gun" to refer to guns made specifically for Trade and Diplomatic actions for the Indigenous peoples of North America.

Hamilton pretty much wrote the book on this, and even today we Refer to Type C, D, G Trade guns. But some folks use Carolina gun to refer to Hamilton's Type G, even though the guns were traded to places outside of the Carolinas, just like Northwest Guns were traded outside of "Hudson Bay"

North American Indian Trade guns were different than guns made for the African trade, and both of those guns were different than Folwers made for civilian customers, fusils made for Officers, or military style export guns that were sold to friendly foreign nations, colonies or private individuals exempt from military duty but required to provide stands of arms to purchase their exemption.

Now I know that some folks, a minority have taken to using the "Trade Gun" to mean any weapon made for the gun trade, but I find that to be a confusing use of the words, and outside the norm.

colorado clyde said:

Artificer said:

Then there is another side that says if they needed a sling, they tied on a piece of rope, leather or woven material. This because there is no evidence a permanent sling was ever used on a Trade Gun.

This side is applying the Principle of Occam's Razor.

Gus

Click to expand...

Are you saying that in 300 years no one put a permanent sling on a trade gun ??? ......not one person.. or just that you can't find any evidence?

.

Click to expand...

Of course I can not, JUST as you and no one else can say it was done even a single time, with no evidence or proof of it having been done.

Why should they when they could add a rope, piece of leather or woven material any time they needed a sling?


Gus

colorado clyde said:

Were trade guns made with slings?....doubtful

Click to expand...

Actually with all the historic evidence not showing a single such case, the BEST answer to this is "only possible," but certainly not merely "doubtful."

colorado clyde said:

Did some put a sling on a trade gun? ...probable.

Click to expand...

Probable they tied something to a gun for a sling or slung it in a bag that had a sling, but adding a permanent sling is again at best, only possible.

colorado clyde said:

Were some trade guns simply military surplus????...I think so.

Click to expand...

Are you suggesting the Military added slings to Trade Guns? If so, where is the evidence of it? Now THIS one I just HAVE to see.... :grin:

colorado clyde said:

Why were military guns made with slings but not trade guns??

Click to expand...

Because the military DEEMED IT NECESSARY. Obviously those who ordered Trade Guns and those who made and supplied them did not think a sling was necessary on a Trade Gun OR there would be evidence of it. If NA's really believed it necessary or desirable, there WOULD have been permanently mounted slings on some guns. But alas, no proof of that either.[/quote]

Gus

Actually, I don't think Occam's Razor applies in this instance.

The way I read the definition of Occam's Razor it is a method of reducing the possible explanations for observed data or information.

As no one apparently has ever observed a 150 + year old Trade Gun with hardware for attaching a sling on it, I'm not sure the principle can be used. :hmm:

:stir:

Why should they when they could add a rope, piece of leather or woven material any time they needed a sling?

Click to expand...

Because they would have eventually seen soldiers that had slings on their guns....and emulation was common.
swivels allowed for a sling to become art or a symbol of status.

Are you suggesting the Military added slings to Trade Guns? If so, where is the evidence of it? Now THIS one I just HAVE to see....

Click to expand...

No! NO! I am suggesting that some guns that were traded for furs or whatever were actually military surplus guns, that most likely had swivels. This would explain why there is no evidence for slings on trade guns......they are misidentified.

Ah, but the side that is trying so hard to justify the use of slings permanently attached to Trade Guns in the historic record is not using documented historic facts. They are attempting to pose a hypothesis based on assumptions, because they have nothing tangible to back up their claim.

I have yet to see a good answer for "Why would they add a permanent sling to a Trade Gun when a piece of rope, leather or woven material tied to the gun would have worked?"

Further, Luke posted evidence of a Trade Gun being carried in a case (that were known to be used) that had a sling on the case.

So because the side that tries to justify permanent mounting of slings by using assumptions, instead of factual evidence, then Occam's Razor does apply.

"The principle states that among competing hypotheses, the one with the fewest assumptions should be selected. Other, more complicated solutions may ultimately prove correct, but””in the absence of certainty””the fewer assumptions that are made, the better."

According to Occam's Razor, the theory with the least assumptions is the one that a piece of rope, leather or woven material was tied to the gun IF and WHEN needed.

Gus

Because the military DEEMED IT NECESSARY.

Click to expand...

Yes, but there must have been an actual reason why....I do have some practical theories.

If trade guns were not equipped with a sling I think it was because of simple economics, the trade was all about making money not spending it.

colorado clyde said:

Are you suggesting the Military added slings to Trade Guns? If so, where is the evidence of it? Now THIS one I just HAVE to see....

Click to expand...

No! NO! I am suggesting that some guns that were traded for furs or whatever were actually military surplus guns, that most likely had swivels. This would explain why there is no evidence for slings on trade guns......they are misidentified.

Click to expand...

Thank you for clearing that up, to a degree. I have to admit I am more confused by this answer, though.

Military Pattern Arms really can not be confused with Trade Guns then or now. So may I ask for more clarification?

Gus

colorado clyde said:

Because the military DEEMED IT NECESSARY.

Click to expand...

Yes, but there must have been an actual reason why....I do have some practical theories.

If trade guns were not equipped with a sling I think it was because of simple economics, the trade was all about making money not spending it.

Click to expand...

Not sure how military gun use can be compared to Trade Guns, or if it is even germane to the discussion.

I fully agree one of the reasons for not having sling swivels mounted to Trade Guns, was to keep costs down.

Gus

History is full of facts that change over time.
It is possible for something to physically exist and be known to be true without tangible evidence.
This has been proven time and time again

We are limited by our understanding of the evidence ....not the lack of it.....

Is there a lot of evidence of tieing sling on trade guns? Some historic examples of trade guns with temporary ties on? If not then is your start that probably they put on a temporary tie more valid then some one added a real sling. Why put on a sling ,God only knows, but I am sure some have looked at my stuff and said words to the effect of that boy ain't right.

colorado clyde said:

Because the military DEEMED IT NECESSARY.

Click to expand...

Yes, but there must have been an actual reason why....I do have some practical theories.

If trade guns were not equipped with a sling I think it was because of simple economics, the trade was all about making money not spending it.

Click to expand...

And to make money, you have to have product that your customers want. There are numerous instances in the recorded history of the fur trade where customer feedback left the frontier and caused changes to be made in the ensuing product. if slings were wanted, or needed by the actual customers, they would have gotten them.

colorado clyde said:

Why should they when they could add a rope, piece of leather or woven material any time they needed a sling?

Click to expand...

Because they would have eventually seen soldiers that had slings on their guns....and emulation was common.
swivels allowed for a sling to become art or a symbol of status.

Click to expand...

First my apology. I did not see this one as I was answering other posts and I lost it in the shuffle.

IF the NA's found something the European Settlers had they liked or could use, they asked for it in trade. The fact they did not ask for permanently mounted slings on Trade Guns, when some to many NA's had seen them mounted on Soldier's Guns, documents they did not value slings permanently mounted on trade guns.
Gus

colorado clyde said:

History is full of facts that change over time.
It is possible for something to physically exist and be known to be true without tangible evidence.
This has been proven time and time again

We are limited by our understanding of the evidence ....not the lack of it.....

Click to expand...

If that has been proven time and time again, then I'm sure you can give at least a few examples AND how it would pertain to Trade Guns?

Gus

tenngun said:

Is there a lot of evidence of tieing sling on trade guns? Some historic examples of trade guns with temporary ties on? If not then is your start that probably they put on a temporary tie more valid then some one added a real sling. Why put on a sling ,God only knows, but I am sure some have looked at my stuff and said words to the effect of that boy ain't right.

Click to expand...

My position has always been a sling would NOT have been needed or desired MOST of the time on Trade Guns. (This is obviously reinforced by the historic lack of permanently mounted slings on Trade Guns.) This is why I keep stating tied on slings were more likely used IF and WHEN someone thought they were needed, then taken off when they were not.

Gus

colorado clyde said:

Are you suggesting the Military added slings to Trade Guns? If so, where is the evidence of it? Now THIS one I just HAVE to see....

Click to expand...

No! NO! I am suggesting that some guns that were traded for furs or whatever were actually military surplus guns, that most likely had swivels. This would explain why there is no evidence for slings on trade guns......they are misidentified.

Click to expand...

In the Sir William Johnson papers are several instances when it is stated that the Native Americans would not accept muskets because of the larger bore and heavier weight. They would not have them.

Rich Pierce said:

colorado clyde said:

Are you suggesting the Military added slings to Trade Guns? If so, where is the evidence of it? Now THIS one I just HAVE to see....

Click to expand...

No! NO! I am suggesting that some guns that were traded for furs or whatever were actually military surplus guns, that most likely had swivels. This would explain why there is no evidence for slings on trade guns......they are misidentified.

Click to expand...

In the Sir William Johnson papers are several instances when it is stated that the Native Americans would not accept muskets because of the larger bore and heavier weight. They would not have them.

Click to expand...

And I can see some British Officers saying, "But, BUT we will GIVE you the muskets with SLINGS attached to them......" :rotf:

Sorry, I could just not resist it. :haha:

Gus

Artificer said:

colorado clyde said:

History is full of facts that change over time.
It is possible for something to physically exist and be known to be true without tangible evidence.
This has been proven time and time again

We are limited by our understanding of the evidence ....not the lack of it.....

Click to expand...

If that has been proven time and time again, then I'm sure you can give at least a few examples AND how it would pertain to Trade Guns?

Gus

Click to expand...

Oxygen and microbes would be good examples.... their existence was know before they could be positively identified..