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Knife pins or rivets?

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stuartg

40 Cal.
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I'm going to try my hand at building a trade knife and would like to know what the experienced guys use for fastening maple or walnut to the tang. I've seen brass rivets and brass rod used, but what's recommended?

Thanks!

Stuart
 
Kennyc said:
Can't go wrong with steel pins
Yes. For 18th c., Iron/steel pins. Brass, copper, pewter grip pins are found on few, if any, originals making them at best, rare to nonexistent. For slab grips, I would recommend using epoxy along with the iron pins to add strength, but also to seal the joint from moisture. The pin holes are counter sunk and the pin heads are lightly peened to form them into rivets. The counter sinking can be very shallow and still provide good strength. 1/32" deep counter sinking is plenty for most. Few if any 18th c. knives will have more than three pins.
 
Do not consider myself much of a craftsman or artist. I have built some knives, most just to suit myself and meet a need. Ain't been thrown out of ronny yet when carrying one. :wink:
I usually use copper electric wire in larger sizes, mostly #12 or better #10. Scrap is free and it works fine. Peens well. Have used brazing rod of in past but it is quite hard and does not peen well.
 
For something a bit softer and easier to peen than steel pins/nails, you might try some modern or better still antique Iron wire. You just have to de-rust or de=blue/de-black oxide it before you glue it in.

BTW, the "trick" to peening wire in knife handles is to cut it VERY close to the chamfered end of the holes and then using a nail set or small steel starter drift pin punch- to peen it out.

Gus
 
I use W-1 drill rod. It comes soft annealed and peens fine. Common general purpose welding rod is very good also. The "trick" to a nice peen job is to round the sharp edge off the pin. That helps to keep the edges from cracking, and use a ball peen hammer of a suitable size. Use many lighter blows rather than a few heavy ones. Then file and sand flush. If you happen to slip with a punch, you will drive a hole into your handle material. Practice a few times and get the feel of it before you do your knife grip.
 
An option. If you are starting from bar stock, if you will drill a bunch of holes through the tang, and use a quality epoxy you can just use pins unpeened. The holes you drill will allow epoxy bridges and direct contact from slab to slab. Makes a very strong assembly. In most cases, stronger than just peened pins. However, the grip material should not be an oily type wood, and needs to be very clean. It should also be prepped with medium to coarse sand paper to give a maximum bond.
 
Wick Ellerbe said:
Just depends on whether you want it right, or just want it your way.


It is a continuing learning process. I guess I am not as dedicated to the perzactness of things being pc as others. In fact, I'm probably not because there is so much conflicting information out there. Many times once I think I have learned something, the next expert tells me that is wrong. I'm happy just coming as close as I can at the moment. My two as perzact as possible rifles were built by true masters/experts. I'm happy with those.
 
When I glue like that I get gaps, the slabs do not lie flat on the tang. That's me. Of course, the difference between my knives and yours is like comparing a Victoria's Secret model with the walkin' away view of a mule. :wink:
(there is a reason why I have never posted a knife I have made. :redface: )
 
I sure have made a lot of stuff and later learned I was off on the pc aspect. The past is the past and I used brass pins as well but now I use steel/iron. Some of this is "for show" since I also use the epoxy glue. I've tried peening the heads and as Wick said, if you miss you sort of screwed up the handle. If it is bone you can crack the material. The other thing I did was peen one head a little larger in diameter than the others and to me, it looked bad.
So...for a newbie, maybe just have the pins flush and rely on the epoxy glue and skip the peening altogether.
The other thing, when you are drilling the holes make sure you use a drill press so the exit holes look as good as the entrance holes. Even on original knifes I've seen the three pins out of line.
I use old coat hangers, pretty soft. Getting soft steel/iron is the hard thing for me.
The PC brass pins....several years back I was in pretty constant contact with a museum curator over in Sheffield. I was told that some of what I thought were pins were brass screws with the ends cut off. I tried to find out what dates these were used and right now I can't remember but I think right around 1840 there might have been a few knives where there was the 5 pin arrangement where the four "corners" had steel/iron pins and the middle was the brass screw. Wilson had a catalog I think around 1850 with this listed but whether they were sent to North America or existed before 1840- as I said, I can't recall. Maybe someone else knows.
IAE, you can't go wrong with the steel pins.
 
I use nails and welding rods but do not peen. I use epoxy and drill extra holes just like Wick said. When I make half tangs my Cutlers "resin" is a two part epoxy I get from the Napa store. It is a dull charcoal color when dry this for darker woods and I use clear epoxy with beige brick dust for light woods and red dust for red handled scalpers
 
Rifleman1776 said:
When I glue like that I get gaps, the slabs do not lie flat on the tang. That's me.

If the slabs or tang is not even, one way to get them so is to get a piece of window pane or other flat glass, place sandpaper on it with the grit up from the glass and on the paper on the glass. Then sand the tang or slab on the sand paper on the glass.

To get a good glue line, it is better to glue one slab onto the tang at a time under a little pressure from a soft jawed clamp like the ones in the following link. I just put waxed paper between the jaws and the slab or tang so the squeezed out epoxy doesn't glue to the jaws.
http://www.irwin.com/tools/clamps/one-handed-mini-bar-clamps

Gus
 
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Well since we are talking about knife building...
I have trouble getting perfect flat slabs. What I do is "hollow out" the middle part so only the perimeter of the slab is in contact with the tang. Now this "hollow out" is only about 1/32" - just a little. I use a dremel- takes a minute.
Next I smooth out a small piece of aluminum foil and I slide that between the tang and slab. Where ever it sticks, I scrap that area just a little. When I get the slab to fit close enough that I cannot see any gaps and the foil pretty much is even (sticks) at all points- I'm done.
Historically, a lot of the originals weren't that good a fit. If you can picture for yourself a tapered half tang sandwiched between two slabs, unless you taper the front of the slabs the fit isn't perfect.
The pc "stuff" to fill in the voids was cutler's rosin and I think there were a couple of different formulas. Mine is made from pine resin I collect from pine trees in spring and that gets mixed up about 50/50 with plain old BBQ charcoal (real wood not briquettes) that has been pulverized into dust. It makes a black filler. In truth you can use PC7 or any similar dark gray epoxy putty and get the same look- the only one that knows is you.
But sometimes "you" is enough. If I look at one of my creations and know it is resin/charcoal- I feel better about it.
As said, these fillers also keep water out of the interior area. Historically I doubt any trade knife had filler, I think they were used mostly on better grade knives with a rat tail tang fitted into a hollow handle. In time the resin dries hard as a rock.
 

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