Brown bess caliber???

Leeds is just the tip of the iceberg , there is Hampton Court , it uses muskets and pistols ,swords etc as wall paper , in other locations there are hundreds of acres of storage of items from the 17th century to present .One of these facilities was on tv in an episode of Top-Gear (CLOSED TO THE PUBLIC )

Dr. De Witt Bailey submitted his thesis for the Degree of Phd from Kings College in London in 1988. You may find this online.

“In a study which involves the use of both documents and artifacts, it is impossible to achieve a balanced view, and often impossible indeed to achieve a correct conclusion, without making use of both types of evidence. This was made strikingly clear to me when, after more than two years of organizing the documentary materials, in conjunction with access to various public and private collections of British military small-arms in this country and abroad, I was offered the chance of cataloguing the collection of British military small-arms at Colonial Williamsburg, in Virginia, U. S. A. Unlike any of the collections in England or Europe, not excepting the Tower of London's Royal Armouries, the Williamsburg collection contains several or many examples of a single type of arm. When these are closely examined and compared with the evidence in the documents, it is possible to draw a number of vital conclusions about the design and production methods which were quite impossible prior to such an examination. Although the documents do not suggest it, the products of the Board's system of manufacture reflect a far greater degree of unity, similarity) and precision than could be concluded from seeing only single examples. “

BTW, Dr. Bailey states the musket bore was .76 caliber in his books.

Rifleman1776 said:

The Pedersoli Besses are not consistent in bore size. Reported here and other forums often. Mine is happy with a .751 prb. BTW, I have a Dixie mould made when they were only $12.00. :shocked2:

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Yeah. Mine is an old one, but I'm not the original owner and haven't tried to date it. Being a slackard I haven't even miked the bore. It came with a .735 mold, so that's what I've used. All I can say is I can thumb-start a .735 ball and a ticking patch. I'm betting it's bore is .750, if not slightly larger.

Whatever. Makes me happy when I pull the bottom lever, and sometimes even hits where I want. :wink:

ONE of the main reasons that many ML shooters dismiss the Bess as "suitable for big-game hunting" is that they have never actually carefully measured their own individual musket and then procured the correct diameter ball to be used as PRB. - There is often "considerable variation" in the barrels on repro BB muskets, even within the goods of the same builder/importer.
(About 10 years ago, the bores of BB reproductions at the old/long out-of-business "Olde Time Dominion Shoppe", vendor of ML, re-enactor & archery supplies, in Prince William County, VA were measured and the minimum to maximum "bore-size variation" of "in-stock muskets" was reportedly about 0.15 inch.)

Out to 50M, a BB with properly fitted PRB is suitable for almost taking any NA game animal, imVho.

yours, satx

You're right about the lack of curiosity on the part of some shooters... I've seen folks with a "Jukar" made, caplock "longrifle" with loading problems as the barrel was actually a .44 but they assumed it was a .45 and the .440 round ball was rather tight. A few repro bess are .69, some are .72, and some are .75...and that's just the Italian and the Jap versions. A couple of years ago a fellow at a shoot was having real problems with his second-hand 20 gauge...first time shooting it beyond 25 yards. Something about the muzzle looked "odd" to me... after some closer examination, it was a 16 gauge... which explained why it was so easy to load and why a .600 ball didn't shoot all that well. He'd bought if from a fellow who told him it was a 20.

LD

Understood.

Until the "Old Time Dominion Shoppe" did their "experiment", I had NO idea that there was that much variation in bore-size among BB "repos", including individual muskets from the same builder. - Otoh, I've seen NO BB that didn't shoot "acceptably" with a properly-sized PRB out to 40-50M.
(SOME Besses are capable of shooting accurately out to >75M with PRB.)

Note: I have a friend from Fairfax County, VA that has a Bess that was rifled by a gunsmith in Richmond. - That individual "rifled musket" is DEADLY accurate out to about 200M, off a bench-rest, when loaded with a heavy carefully-measured load of "777" & a "hollow-base" CB.
(IF I remember correctly, the "twist" is 1 turn in 72 inches & such a 12-bore rifle should be adequate to take ANY lawful game on Earth out to 100+M. - Terry M________ "put down" an "out of control" Brahma bull of over 1800# at the request of its owner, about 2 years ago. The bull was hit in the chest from 64 "long steps" and the bull ran about 10 steps before falling GYD.)

Personally, I believe that any owner of a Bess is "missing a good bet" if they don't try their musket with a proper load of BP & a suitable PRB.

yours, satx

The gauges are of the type similar to the 1853 sets but different ,(much simpler in design with bits missing they are in bad shape when compared to the Enfield sets .)

Ar ha I have been toying with the idea of rifling the bore of a Pedersoli Carbine , just waiting for one to come up a my price . I am encouraged to hear someone has done it with good results .

My original 3rd Model 1805 had a .77 bore. I used a .750 mold. Wish I had that gun back. :slap:

a Bess that was rifled

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:shocked2: IMHO that is an extremely dangerous thing to do. The thin barreled smoothbore, BB or otherwise, is not intended to withstand the pressures of rifle loads.
I am a strong advocate of 'doing yer own thang' in this ml game but draw the line when safety becomes an issue.
Cutting rifling into an already thin barrel then loading up to rifle pressures go way-way over that line.

1601phill said:

The gauges are of the type similar to the 1853 sets but different ,(much simpler in design with bits missing they are in bad shape when compared to the Enfield sets .)

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It sounds like the gauges that had previously been identified as 19th century gauges, that is why I asked.

Most of the BB's in the Colonial Williamsburg collection are 18th century BB's. I don't remember if they have any P1718 Muskets, but they have quite a few P1730 through American Rev War Muskets. As already mentioned, the 18th century muskets in the CW collection have been identified as .76 caliber, besides what Dr. Bailey found when he did his Doctoral Thesis in the UK.

Gus

Most of the BB's in the Colonial Williamsburg collection are 18th century BB's.

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At one time, an "expert" on things Williamsburg said the BBs on display are all Pedersoli repros. Really, I dunno, just saying.......

ricky said:

My original 3rd Model 1805 had a .77 bore. I used a .750 mold. Wish I had that gun back. :slap:

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Rick,

Good info on a 19th century Bess. Was it exactly .770" measurement or was it larger when measured with a precision caliper?

Gus

Rifleman1776 said:

Most of the BB's in the Colonial Williamsburg collection are 18th century BB's.

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At one time, an "expert" on things Williamsburg said the BBs on display are all Pedersoli repros. Really, I dunno, just saying.......

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Back in the early 70's, most of the ones on display in both the Powder Magazine and Governor's Mansion were original muskets, pistols, swords, etc. I was shocked to find how close they let we "visitors" get to them. Then sometime not long afterward, they did replace the muskets and pistols and some swords, etc. with reproductions at both places. The last time I was in the Powder Magazine was in the early 2000's and the only original muskets there were behind glass. The ones out on display had all been replaced by reproductions.

Gus

Hi Gus. Sorry, don't remember. I had to order one of those Scissor type molds from Dixie Gun Works in .750. That was the only mold available back then.
It was about 30 years ago. :haha: Rick. :hatsoff:

Frankly, I don't know how much MORE pressure that a PRB from a rifled bore, as opposed to a "tightly" PRB from a smooth-bore, has BUT the guy has been shooting for 5-6 years with only "game" getting wounded/killed.
(in at least that ONE case, it seems to work OK.)

Unlike some folks here, I don't claim to be "an expert" on ML firearms. = I'm just a "gun tinkerer", "old soldier"/LEO & hunter.

yours, satx

Hi Rick,

Thanks for the reply. I surely understand about having to order the scissors mold from Dixie back then. In the mid 70's when I competed with a Pedersoli Brown Bess Carbine, the actual bore size was .753" and the only ball size available then was .735". It shot well once I found just eh right patching material, but I would have liked to have had the choice of a slightly larger size ball to try.

Gus

It's my understanding that quite a few .69 smooth bore muskets were rifled for use in The War of Northern Aggression. Were they used with Minie ball or round ball. Does anyone know how that worked out. I suppose that the safety of the user was not a big concern at the time. :stir:

Some were rifled versions of the M.1842 Musket, some were the Remington version of "Type III" M.1816 Muskets converted using the Maynard tape ignition system. Other variations existed, of course. These appear to have worked well for the era and were used throughout a very Uncivil War by whoever could lay their hands on them. One of the more colorful units was the 69th New York Volunteer Infantry, an all Irish militia unit who were issued the standard M.1842 smoothbore musket, but whose Comapny K (everybody had to have a Zouave company then) took up the Remington conversion which was rifled. Might toss out that the Zouave comapny differed from the rest of the regiment only in pale blue belly sashes and rifled muskets...well, it's the thought that counts! :wink: And speaking of "the thought", also seems that at First Manassas, some of the lads indulged in the old Irish custom of going barefoot!

Artificer said:

Rifleman1776 said:

Most of the BB's in the Colonial Williamsburg collection are 18th century BB's.

Click to expand...

At one time, an "expert" on things Williamsburg said the BBs on display are all Pedersoli repros. Really, I dunno, just saying.......

Click to expand...

Back in the early 70's, most of the ones on display in both the Powder Magazine and Governor's Mansion were original muskets, pistols, swords, etc. I was shocked to find how close they let we "visitors" get to them. Then sometime not long afterward, they did replace the muskets and pistols and some swords, etc. with reproductions at both places. The last time I was in the Powder Magazine was in the early 2000's and the only original muskets there were behind glass. The ones out on display had all been replaced by reproductions.

Gus

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That's sad. But, thanks for the clarification.