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Brown Bess Carbine

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Ah, so, the most controversial aspect of what MTVCo are suddenly selling en masse at auction (arguably junk guns made in India) is intentionally left off of the otherwise detailed description of their arms where one bids yet that's not their fault but the buyer's responsibility. To you maybe Tiger, and since you defend the seller I'd like to think that fundamentally important information is witheld from your decision-making when you shop... Caveat emptor, right buddy!

However, to me MTVCo are now untrustworthy creeps obviously hoping, trying, to get away with something.
 
Alden,

I have read a lot about Indian guns, can't form an honest opinion myself as I have never seen/shot one in person. I guess if (going by your opinion on these guns) I want to collect reasonably "hc" muskets and rifles I better be ready to spend $900+ per gun. Comes with the territory I guess :(. I was fortunate to get a used Armi sport Pattern 1853 Enfield for $400 (great condition too), so I got lucky there.
 
I'm not debating the correctness or trustworthiness of India-made-guns per se but noting MVTCo's recent decline in these regards as related here.

Someone else will be along momentarily to feel good about telling you how bad your commercial P-53 must be...
 
Well, for example, the date on the lock was the year they made the least of those so statistically speaking it is completely wrong.

The wood is stained darker than the original by a half-a-shade. Everyone knows that and you were duped.

The wrist, which could NEVER be duplicated by modern mechanical equipment for some unexplicable "reason" is a 1/32" thicker diameter today -- unacceptable.

The front barrel band is 1/16" farther up on the barrel than half the originals and 1/16" farther back than the other half, so, it's 100% wrong -- the idiots! It would have been no more expensive to choose one and just be wrong HALF the time!!!

If you use your electron microscope and 29,000 frames-per-second video camera you'll see that the axle modulator skytuner (AMS) is not configured exactly the same as an original and may have a .0006th second impact on lock time. Those bastards! Sure, it is much less expensive to make it that way, is faster, and is more durable but we don't use indoor plumbing and don't wipe anyway at home either because cavemen didn't we know as they didn't record that (and our poop don't stink), therefore, you should minimally buy an orignal AMS and have it retrofitted to the lock (only maybe another $199) to be accepted by the like of self-proclaimed-experts as me if you don't just throw the whole lock away and start over...

You should have bought a $2,599 custom made repro that might be no better and waited a year or two or three or four for it...
 
Alden seems to be devolving into a Reductio ad Absurdum where one reduces the argument to absurd extremes and then is critical of those extremes.

The Pedersoli Bess has several faults, the primary one is that it most closely resembles a "Short Land Pattern" Bess, which was used in very small numbers in the American Revolution, and even as an SLP it's wrong... as far as cosmetics go. One only needs the naked eye to see that.

The lock is dated "Grice 1762" while the musket they make wasn't started into mass production until 1769. It should have a round not a flat sideplate unless it's the 1777 version (but the 1777 version never made it to America). These are two glaring mistakes..., easily fixed (the Japanese Bess lock was correctly marked "tower") but Pedersoli ignores complaints.

Middlesex Village Trading Company apparently crossed some "line" by removing something on the main page that says their stuff is of India origins..., but Pedersoli says this about their Bess,
"Veteran of the Seven Years War, it was used also by Wellington during the war in the Iberian Peninsula and at Waterloo. The infantry troops of almost the entire world used it, from the European Nations allied with the English to the Mexican troops, who used it until the last battle with United States on the 13th of September 1847 at Chapultepec.

What is written is "essentially true", but what Pedersoli doesn't tell you is the version that they sell could not have been used during the 7 Years War, NOR was it used by Wellington's troops nor by Mexicans. The Long Land Pattern Bess was used until AFTER the American Revolution, and by the Napoleonic Wars, the India Pattern was used.

Sure the differences may be subtle to some people's eyes, but the differences are real just as the original M-16 of the Vietnam era is different than the M-4 Rifle of today's military.

The Pedersoli Bess are good shooting guns, well assembled, and attractive, although the more recent versions have had some spring problems.

If one does not like the business practices of any company, one should opt not to trade with that company. Of course we assume that all of the parts in the Pedersoli guns come from Italy, when in fact there is nothing to indicate this, just as there is nothing to indicate in the price stickers of our cars how much is made in USA, vs. Canada, or Japan, etc.

LD
 
And maybe India-made guns are really from their double secret probation ally, Pakistan, with its special steel industry where U.S. custom gun-assemblers really buy their locks and barrels too. Who's really to say, or really not? Oh, I know!

Not Middlesex anymore...

:shake:
 
Almost every source that i have read concerning "rogers" rangers or any other independent company of rangers, states that rangers were paid more than the average line soldier and that they were also paid a "clothing" allowance and required to provide their own firearm, blanket and clothing.. The high price of maintaining ranger companies as well as lack of discipline in said companies is what lead to the forming of Gage's light infantry.
 
I would guess, to you, everything is junk unless it is plated in 24 carat gold and given to you for free. Their website tells the potential buyer exactly where the guns are made. ANY buyer that does not do their home work before they spend their money gets what they get. "A fool and their money are soon parted" is the old saying. I have purchased two muskets from MVTC, and I have been treated fairly there. I also did my research before spending my cash. I believe I got exactly what I paid for, no more, and certainly no less. I am pleased with my purchase, and that is all that needs to be said. The question needs to be asked, Have YOU first hand knowledge of this company which you berate? did they screw you? or do you just have a affliction against curry? There is certainly not enough room on an internet auction site to answer every question from a buyer, if you have a doubt, GO TO THEIR WEBSITE TO INVESTIGATE the company to remove all doubts. It is attitudes like yours on this forum, that discourage others from our sport, you MAY have knowledge Alden, but temper that knowledge with humility once in a while, you would better serve the sport.
 
Gold plated service to you, Tiger, is stating "Made in India" when, otherwise, everyone identifies the actual maker of the blackpowder arms they sell!? Sorry, Tiger...

...the sport is discouraged by average people being taken advantage of by a seller (I had heretofore dealt with satisfactorily) now auctioning below average guns by hiding the critical fact that they are made in India.

Above average to me is a forum that discloses charletans and uncovers their appologists who do the rest of us a diservice by their personal attacks. Ahem!
 
Hiding with thine eyes wide open then..... And personal attacks? on you? did I not ask you how many guns you personally bought from them as to be such a judge of this company? You talk like you speak from personal experience? well speak up? have you any or is it just BS you spout in general? As I said, most of the input lately is discouraging to the sport. And if you bought something from this company that was bad from experience, speak up, if it be from hearsay, it's just that. You may bully others on here, but you've run across a real hard head this time. We can keep it nice, or we can go at it until Claude throws us out of here. Just because stuff aint spell out in bold for you on a auction site, you have a hissy fit, you knew all along they were from India, 99% of the buyers out there also know the same thing. They are not going to get a Pedersoli for the price of an Indian Musket, that is brand new.
 
You insist on making everything personal Tiger. Sorry, but it isn't about you. Nor can you make it about me instead of once-legitimate Middlesex' gameplan to obfuscate the India-origin of the blackpowder guns they just started auctioning to the unwashed masses...
 
And now Veteran Arms is doing the same thing -- posting India-made guns on the internet for sale with nary a word as to who makes 'em/where they come from. More deceptive practices in the hobby hoping to catch the uninformed unaware from making a knowledgeable decision!

And don't someone (including the owner here whom I'm frankly surprised by and disappointed in) tell me folk can go to the website and find out for themselves -- that's shullbit -- if they can that's a coupla layers hidden just like at MVTCo.
 
Anyone who makes an "uninformed" decision without researching before buying a firearm ONLINE is getting what one deserves...either way this post was started in discussion of wether or not a "sawed off " or carbine bess is period correct..it is not a post to publicy vent your dissaproval of companies selling India made weapons....personally im tired of haveing to read your dribble on darn near every post I look at...please start a seperate post to "discuss" this issue so that i can ignore it..
 
Almost every source that i have read concerning "rogers" rangers or any other independent company of rangers, states that rangers were paid more than the average line soldier and that they were also paid a "clothing" allowance and required to provide their own firearm, blanket and clothing.. The high price of maintaining ranger companies as well as lack of discipline in said companies is what lead to the forming of Gage's light infantry.

There are also records of Rogers contrating for some muskets, and it's from these that the idea of the "ranger" musket may stem... they may have either been ordered "short" or the barrel pieces fround on Rogers' Island may have come from these privately owned muskets... one doesn't lop off 6" - 10" from a King's Musket without written permission. :shocked2: But a order for custom made muskets...maybe...

LD
 
The earth may stop rotating when I admit this....but...I am in agreement with the points Alden is making. Several issues here. e.g. just how persnickity must one be to be 'hc'? And, import anything from India is controversial. They have their engineers and such educated in America but the factory work is (often) done by children sold into a lifetime of slavery for as little as $25.00. Quality control over the manufacture can be non-existant. e.g. a tractor dealer friend of mine says India made tractors often have castings so flawed oil runs out. Want a wall hanger? The India made stuff might be OK. But, a shooter? :shocked2: I don't even want to be on the same range with one. And, yes, I know someone will say, "Mine ain't blowed up yet." I love the "yet" part.
 
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