welding on a tang and hooked breech questions.

My walnut build got side swiped and with lots of winter left I am desperate to start on another build so I dug out some parts that I have been avoiding. A Rase inletted blank with an Oregon Barrel Works tube and a new large siler. When I put these together I was even more ignorant then I am now and thought I wanted a hook breech. Now I just want a regular tang and a nice relaxing fantasy trade gun build. ( a platform to show off my childlike engraving) And of course now I realize just how not simple a hook breech is. I have the hook 90% mated but really not confident in going the other 10%. Also there is lots of bolster interference with the standing breech. Basically not keen on continuing as a hook breech.

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So what I am wondering is can a guy get a tang welded onto a plug like this?

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The blank is inletted absolutely perfectly so I do not want to rebreech with a new plug. And I don't think I can rebreech better then Joe at TGWs.

If this operation is possible anyone know someone I can trust to do it right?

Thanks again.

it can certainly be done. it needs to TIG welded.

Stress relieved after? Or does the tig keep the heat down enough?

What ever welding process is used has to get hot enough to melt steel. If you have some room between the weld area and where pressure will be an issue it is often possible to use a heat sink or heat control paste as in bolt handle welding on center fire guns. I have used both for such welding.
Welding a tang onto a fitted breech plug is dicey as there is no way I am aware of to adequately shield from heat transfer by conduction in so short a space before pressure issues are encountered.
Personally I would rely on a close fit between hook and tang and leave off any welding in this area. Mike D.

on my LRML match rifle i built a year ago i wanted a completely solid fit between the hooked breech and the tang. since I had no plans to ever remove the barrel from the stock, and on originals this is a place of wear and the only place the barrel could possible shift a tiny amount. I had the weld placed on the back side of the tang, basically filling in the open rectangle area where the hook goes. shoots fantastic.

Tetsa Prowler said:

Stress relieved after? Or does the tig keep the heat down enough?

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no need to stress relieve and the TIG makes a better quality weld.

This could incur an issue, and not just the welding of the tang issue. A regular tang you want to put on the rifle may not work, as normally the tang is the same width as the flat of the barrel. A hooked breech tang is usually wider there & incorporates this flat into it, so a regular tang may be too small. If this is the case, then you may have to make a tang & shape it appropriately, or weld on the one you were going to hook to & use it.... It appears you hook/plug was inlet, thus that inlet width has to be dealt with to cover it.

As far as welding the tang to the hook you have, or making one ? Welding the one you have would be the easiest, as all he has to do is weld it & you clean it up. Making one that fits perfectly up against the barrel will be more difficult.

Were it Me, I would not back up, I would go on as planned. I don't like changing horses in the middle of the stream, unless my horses head is under water. Since this is not the case, keep on going and get across the river....... THEN look back & says "OK, next time I am going to do this". :wink: We all look back & see things to do differently, even after building dozens of them.

If you want to add & reshape to make a long tang or whatever, OK. But since I you had it already inlet for the hooked breech, I would proceed with the original plan. If this build goes well, it won't be the last build, so just consider it a learning experience.

It is important to make up your mind & stay with it on a build. Changing directions in the middle is not good, it makes you unsure, & uneasy & frustrations can build. Frustration in a build usually shows, errors occur, etc. Take your time, build it, enjoy it, learn from it, then do another one, learn again, etc.. :thumbsup:

Keith Lisle

! agree that changing direction mid-stream could pose problems, but if you're intent on what you're going to do, here's how.

Remove the plug and check the threads and seal and clamp on the threads in a padded jaw vise, file off the hook and reduce the width of the bolster so it's less than the top bbl flat. Scarf the top 3 corners of the bolster.

The new tang will have to be "L" shaped to reach down to the top of the bolster. The bottom corners of the "L" have to be scarfed on 3 sides also.

Clamp the installed bolster and new tang together and lay a couple of tacks on both sides in the scarf and unscrew the assembly from the bbl. Apply the wrench only to the bolster...not on the tang. Complete the weld out of the bbl, file to shape and install the new breechplug.

Don't know what stock work will be involved.

Good luck on your "new" project.....Fred

I know my opinion is well worth what you paid for it, but.....I see a perfectly good hook breach barrel. It seems to me that you should be able to find a perfectly fine hook tang to either match up with this hook breech, or with some judicious filing, have it mate as if it were manufactured to do so.

Several years back when I purchased my current GM barrel, I "found" a T\C stock with goodness knows who's tang hook that was screwed into the T\C stock. So, when I attempted to install the factory T\C barrel into this hook tang...it did not work. With the aid of some micrometers and some files and about one hour of work it matched up like they were made for each other. Tighter than a tick on a dog.

I don't know why your changing course in mid-stream. But....if you see a different course, it's your work and your time.

Dave

As usual sage advice and good will abound. Massive thanks.

Had a bit of a ponder on everyone's appreciated advice and technical knowledge and I see what is meant by the changing in midstream.

If you guys can handle me cluttering up the forum with requests for help on fitting, inletting and laying out a hooked breech then I had better take advantage of the learning opportunity and flounder ahead with the original plan.

One more amatuerish fantasy gun build replete with mistakes and imperfections before I build something that I understand.......

I have and use both MIG and TIG welding. Both reach the same heat levels and MIG is faster.
TIG is cleaner if used correctly but has to bring both parent metal and filler up to melting/fusing temperature independent of the actual weld,MIG does both simultaneously.
It is possible the the mass of the barrel will heat sink the threaded breech plug enough not to change the shear strength in the thread mate between the two but then again it very well could. It's going to take a few seconds to put enough filler weld with complete penetration with either process, to make a good and complete weld that will not crack out later and during the fusion both the hook and tang will be brought to over 2000 degrees.
With the relatively low pressure of black powder one will probably get away with any metallurgical changes in this pressure stress area but the margin of safety is definitely reduced from design specification and yield strength.
The trouble is if one accidentally exceeds these parameters the reduced safety margin could be overcome. Mike D.

If you must have them fused then perhaps a low temperature silver solder would serve your purposes with no chance of metallurgical yield strength changes.
I use a lot of Hi- Force-44 silver solder that has two thirds the strength of hard silver solder but flows at soft solder temperatures.
It can also be darkened to hide the fusion point. I am quite sure the joint between tang hook , properly fluxed would be completely filled by the very excellent leaching properties of the product. I have used it several times to reline shot out .22 barrels with very good result.
Also if you should ever need to take the tang and plug apart they could easily be heated and separated with no damage to either. Mike D.

OR.....you wouldn't even need to weld anything.....file and mate a tang to to fit your existing plug...then from the bottom, D&T and bolt from the bottom! File off the bolt that protrudes.
Same strength and never would show......

But I agree with Keith.....plan, and stick with it......

I have done lollie-pop southern tangs.... :shocked2: :youcrazy: :surrender:

ANYTHING is easier than them things!!!!

I would send the barrel back to Oregon, and have them fit a new tang to your barrel. Easy Peasy Jury rigs never really work, also you will then have a full hooked breach to use on another project, or you could sell it.

Bill

kaintuck said:

I have done lollie-pop southern tangs.... :shocked2: :youcrazy: :surrender:

ANYTHING is easier than them things!!!!

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:grin: Really.. :hmm: Wait til you do a Acanthus Leaf buttplate. You will find that southern mountain lollipop tang was a cakewalk compared to this buttplate ! :rotf: I have done a dozen of them & they are still a PITA to get in clean.
Ya can't go IN, or just Down. You have to go In & Down at the same time & guess where the middle needs to go to fit ! And if you guess wrong & the middle is not right, you can't just move the place in deeper & fix it, because you are committed at the Top with that curvy special inlet you just cut in at the top at. You move it in & you have gaps all over the top with wood missing !

Keith Lisle

I have reread this thread several times, considering the options that were presented, and some good options they were.
I still think I would go back to where I originated & go on with the build. FOCUS on that build & do it. Forget about future builds, get this one done...

It is soooooooooooo easy to get sidelined in a build, thinking of other things to do to it & other projects & dif ways & etc. You could end up making errors or getting aggravated from lack of progress, etc.

It is Most Important to have your plan together when ya start & proceed til it is finished.... It helps build confidence, teaches you that you can do it & do it as planned, keeps you Focused staying with the plan, end result is you will learn more & that = confidence in what you learned, end result is hopefully you have a better build each time..

Keith Lisle

Birddog6 said:

Wait til you do a Acanthus Leaf buttplate.

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OHHhhh....so NOW I know where to send one to to get it done for me!!!!!!!!! :blah: :rotf: