How do we get laws changed in Pennsylvania?

You might want to check on the general regulations for muzzleloading and modern handgun hunting, as just any "cap-n-ball" handgun would NOT be legal for hunting deer. A box-lock derringer in .31 for example would not.

Yeah it's not uncommon for the LEO's to not know the intricate variations in black powder guns, rifles, and pistols. For example, a Sharps caplock breechloader and a Ferguson flintlock rifle are not allowed in black powder season in Maryland, as they are both breechloaders..., but the owners of each were told by DNR people they were legal, and when stopped in the field, it took several calls for the officer to get the right answer that black powder or not..., a breechloader is not allowed in muzzleloader season.

Some LEO's are simply ignorant of guns in general. I was stopped in squirrel season carrying a flintlock that was of large enough caliber to take deer, and the DNR officer wanted to charge me with poaching, not believing I was out squirrel hunting, as he thought it impossible that I would head-shoot a squirrel with the rifle..., luckily I had already shot a squirrel and had it in my game bag, hit in the head, to convince him otherwise. THEN he thought I was some sort of miracle shot with the one flintlock in the world that was accurate..., a nice compliment, but far from the truth.

The laws too, here, are pretty confusing. For a while there was a "no-shoot" zone in my county that specifically prohibited firearms, which meant that traditional black powder arms (legally they are antiques even when replicas) and bows were not prohibited. The county council finally figured out the problem and changed the wording of the law, much to the annoyance of several bowhunters that I know.

LD

the information came from the director of the bureau of wildlife protection.

That's fine my brother, but what you are told either verbal or written, if it is not the law is not a defense in court. There have been many cases in PA and MD where folks followed information from DNR officials (Wardens or higher rankers), and even information printed in hunting regulation books provided with licenses, that were wrong, and the violations stood up in court. :shocked2: So in one place you may find it legal to use a cap-n-ball handgun to hunt deer, and in another you may find the minimum caliber for deer hunting is .45. So..., combining the two regulations the actual law would be: It is legal to hunt deer with a cap-n-ball handgun of .45 caliber or larger..., but you might not find such a succinct sentence anywhere in the law or a regulation book, and your "source" assumed you meant a handgun of .45 caliber or larger when you asked your question.

PA says you must use a .50 caliber handgun when hunting deer with a muzzleloading handgun. P. 43, column one, first paragraph of PA hunting regulations.

LD

they are not considered muzzleloaders ,so muzzleloader regs don,t apply. we have no regs on barrel lenghth or caliber on handguns in Pa . we are not like maryland that regulates everything.you could use a .25 if you wanted. i can send the e-mails to you if you wish.just pm your email to me.

Here is an excerpt from the PA game regulations:

LAWFUL ARMS & AMMUNITION:

Deer and Bear: Regular Seasons - 1) Manually operated (pump, lever, bolt actions, single-shot) centerfi re rifl es, shotguns and handguns (revolvers or single-shots) with all lead bullet or ball, or bullet designed to expand on impact;

2) muzzleloading long guns of any type, 44 caliber or larger, or a muzzleloading handgun 50 caliber or larger; an

3) long, recurve, compound bows (minimum draw weight of 35 pounds) or crossbows with broadheads of cutting edge design.

The use of buckshot is not legal, except in the Southeast Special Regulations Area.

So, if CB revolvers are not considered ML, which of the categories below do they fit in? Enjoy, J.D.

Considered a centerfire i can forward the emails to you if u want them

Loyalist Dave said:

That's fine my brother, but what you are told either verbal or written, if it is not the law is not a defense in court. There have been many cases in PA and MD where folks followed information from DNR officials (Wardens or higher rankers), and even information printed in hunting regulation books provided with licenses, that were wrong, and the violations stood up in court. :shocked2: So in one place you may find it legal to use a cap-n-ball handgun to hunt deer, and in another you may find the minimum caliber for deer hunting is .45. So..., combining the two regulations the actual law would be: It is legal to hunt deer with a cap-n-ball handgun of .45 caliber or larger..., but you might not find such a succinct sentence anywhere in the law or a regulation book, and your "source" assumed you meant a handgun of .45 caliber or larger when you asked your question.

PA says you must use a .50 caliber handgun when hunting deer with a muzzleloading handgun. P. 43, column one, first paragraph of PA hunting regulations.

LD

Click to expand...

i was asking 2 different questions. 1 about cap and ball revolver , and 1 about a single shot .45 cal muzzleloader. We need to work on the regulations for the forgotten .45 cal muzzleloading pistol.

Bureaucracy at work! There should be NO caliber restrictions on small game hunting (and in PA, there aren't any on groundhog or porcupine). A .44 BP revolver will kill at least as effectively as a modern .22, and presents no more safety hazard.

For deer, they seem to distinguish between a .44 and up C&B revolver (legal, as a "centerfire" in the clarification from the PGC) and a .44 single shot C&B or flint handgun ( NOT legal, as it must be .50 and up). Yet the single shot can be loaded to a greater power level than the revolver.

But, bottom line is, those who CAN make laws/regulations, WILL make laws/regulations, just to wield their power. And too often, common sense and good policy will have nothing to do with it.

Yes. They determined that cap and ball revolvers are "close" to a centerfire. (They are. U.S. made Percussion caps for a century were labeled center fire.) Center fire refers to a method of igniting the powder, not the ammunition used or the place where the gun loads. Just as there were flintlock breech loaders, even wheel lock cartridge guns centuries ago . method of ignition does not determine anything else.

Now we need to get a determination about smooth bore pistols. I understand they may have issued a determination concerning the Judge with 410 shells for small game.

Of course every state is different. But, with boards like game and fish the regulation writing is often a rubber stamp of what the staff employees reccomend. Sometimes public input can get their attention but it is a difficult route to go. In my state of Arkansas the bow hunters seem to have perfected the lobbying technique and often get what they want. I am a long time political activist and there have been times my efforts have been successful but more often nothing happens. I would look into contacting the members of the governing board and trying to influence them one at a time. Be polite and well prepared. If possible meet a few in person. If there is a statewide ml organization try to get them involved. However, that will be a tough way to go. You will find that most of the organized ml shooters (or any organization) will respond, "I just want to shoot, I don't want to get involved". I won't lecture on those who shun getting "involved". :cursing:

In Colorado back in the mid 1960s there wasn't any season for muzzleloading. A small band of interested muzzleloaders met and form "The Colorado State Muzzle Loading Association", we had a dozen menbers. I knew a gentleman that was a buckskinner and also the future governor of the state a few years later. Dick told us we needed to lobby the "Fish & Game Commission" for a "Special Hunting Season", we did this at every meeting open to the public. Wrote our leaders in the state offices and anyone that would lisen. After several years (1968) the muzzleloaders were given a "Muzzle Loading Season" with 250 bulls, 500 cows elk permits and a buck only season for deer (no limit on numbers).

Every (3) years the CSMLA has to lobby for permits with the "Colorado Fish & Game Commission", the season is not a given like the archery folks enjoy. We always figured members of the commission had members that shot those sticks.

Talk to your state muzzle loading association, local clubs and those that write about the State of Pennsylvania's hunting in newspapers and magazines would be a start. It's not easy to change "Moose & Goose" department heads but it can be done if you don't give up.

My understanding of the reasoning behind caliber restrictions for small game is to make it easier to stop people from poaching big game. In reality, its pretty stupid. Most poachers around here use .22 magnums or crossbows.

In regard to the original question. If you load a smoothbore with shot, its a shotgun, and the maximum bore size is 10 gauge. As far as I know, the barrel length requirement of 18" comes from federal law, not state hunting laws, and muzzleloaders don't fall under any of the NFA restrictions. You can put a stock on a muzzleloading pistol without it becoming an illegal short barrelled rifle. Anybody correct me if I'm wrong,but I don't think its even illegal to hunt with a short barrell shotgun or rifle in PA, as long as you've got the proper tax stamp from the ATF.

Of course, wether or not you get into trouble while actually hunting depends almost entirely on the knowledge and interpretation of the warden who stops you. Even if you're in the right you might still get a citation and be put in the position of either fighting it and paying legal fees, or just giving up and paying the fine.

Well, with a flintlock pistol in Pa., you can hunt with said flint pistol as long as it's a 50 caliber or larger.....unless it's a "Special Regulations" area. You are not permitted to use a flint pistol in a Special Reg's area. Only a "Long Gun".

But....I've always wondered if the deer knew the PRB or Conical that was passing thru it's lungs was coming from a long gun, or a pistol? And....do you think the deer cared?

Hmmmmmm

Dave

if it is loaded with shot, its a shotgun. the same as a contender in .410. if you don't have a carry permit, get a handgun sportsman permit to carry it hunting. i really don't think anyone will bother you as long as you only have shot loads with you.

also at that point, it isn't a .62 cal smoothbore, its a 20 gauge.