Does lead deform in the barrel

why would you pound and stomp a RB??? never figured out why people NEED to do that.

Fleener

can you tell the difference in a .003 inches on a RB with a naked eye?

Fleener

Perhaps the reason some people see weave marks and or land and groove marks is because of the type of rifling the barrel has, maybe a Colerain won't show markings because of the deeper round grooves and thinner lands but a Green Mountain barrel will because of the flat "wider?" lands and shallower flat grooves? Just a thought on why some folks see them and others do not.

I recovered this ball from a buck (frontal shot from 11 yards). Never hit a bone. Deer fell where it stood.

Went from 0.490 to 0.502 diameter and has flats from the grooves. I do not load tight enough to need a short starter so I believe it must have obturated some.

The only ball I have recovered from a deer. Usually they pass through.

Armakiller Totally agree about the different rifling styles. I think different rifling styles and configurations account for far more differences than we considered. I have a dozen different barrels with a multitude of rifling styles. One only has tow wide curved grooves and equal width lands, another has round grooves that are 7 times wider than the lands. Another has a choked bore near the muzzle.

I think the effect of ignition behind a projectile varies greatly on the inertia of the projectile as well. A .440 180 grain round ball certainly has less inertia than a 500 grain 45-70 bullet. And most people accept that the large 45-70 bullet is banged from the rear into swelling to fill the bore. Is the sudden G force imparted against the round ball enough to cause it to shorten in the bore? (like it does to the long lead 45-70 bullet)

Is the effect greater on larger round balls than on smaller ones?

When I was in college, the indoor rifle range had a heave weave nylon curtain that kept arrows from hitting the metal back stop when the archers were using the range. The archers forgot to open the curtains a few times and we fired a few standard vel 22 LR into the curtain. The curtain would jerk back a lot, but stopped the bullets with no visible deformation. That curtain material would probably stop some 50 caliber round balls at 100 yards. If I can get some of that material and measure some .490 balls before firing and then when recovered, I can compare length width and perhaps even the arc of the surface.

Think that would be a valid test?

A small PRB example, flattened like an igloo:

.45 caliber .440”/128grn Hornady ball, 90grns Goex 3F, 60 yard shot, broadside 6 pointer.
Smashed through a rib going in, across through the heart, and stopped bulging the hide on the far side. He swapped ends, sprinted hard 15-20yds and piled up in sight.
Hornady .440”s thumb started in the T/C .45cal x 1:66 Round Ball barrel.
Doesn't have a set of rifling marks on it.

I have no doubt that a lead ball will deform on contact. Hell, take a wheel wight and through it at the ground and it marks it up. But the question I had was it the ignition of the charge would deform in the barrel. My general consensus is it may but very very little. Not enough to effect anything. Also making me think that their really is no reason not to use wheel weight lead for round ball.

I've seen you do this argument many times Bill,
Here's a quote from page 24 of the TC Shooting Sidelock Black powder Muzzleloading Firearms Manual, the manual that you have often quoted yourself, if you decide to look for yourself you'll also note that there are diagrams;

When a perfectly patched round ball is driven

through the barrel, it will show cloth marks around the

circumference of the ball. It will be heavily engraved

where it bore on the lands and lightly engraved in the

groove area. As it is too difficult to load by hand, a

combination this tight is seldom used in a hunting rifle.

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You have been presented with numerous photo's of Round ball with the marks of fabric imprinted but for years you have chosen to ignore the literal facts, and continue to deny marks left on ball.
It doesn't make any sense when there are photo's even in this thread.
Find another argument besides denial,, open your eyes.

MosinRob said:

Also making me think that their really is no reason not to use wheel weight lead for round ball.

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Amen...enjoy !

"If I can get some of that material and measure some .490 balls before firing and then when recovered, I can compare length width and perhaps even the arc of the surface.

Think that would be a valid test? "

You're hitting up against the problem I am puzzled by as well. The measurement we want is small. We have to tell if the small difference is caused by firing or by the capture method. I have heard of many capture methods, but none can say with certainty that the capture method leaves the ball absolutely pristine.

This is what drove me to consider high speed flashes. Flashes with durations as small as 1 millionth of a second (1u sec) will stop a centerfire bullet well enough to measure the rifling marks. However the affordable ones, like I have, will handle a ball at 1000fps. So maybe there are a couple of challenging methods. maybe the way to find a solution is to have folks try both methods, hoping at least one will work.

Regards,
Pletch

I think your right I have been reading these posts and I have thought about what I have seen myself. While the PRB's that I have recovered were pretty flat I don't remember the pattern on the rear. I do know that when I use a CO2 un loader they are not there. There is some pattern where the rifles engrave the ball. I patch pretty darned tight requiring a short starter and I do not get the amount of pattern the pictures in manuals show!

Geo. T.

And this why I made my opening statement like I did:
Setting aside scientific...........
Looking at it practical terms.......
If such high tech undertakings have to be employed to try and determine it, that pretty well makes the point.

Engraving rifling Is required for conicals.
Engraving rifling is a non-issue for PRBs.
The patch grips the ball and excess patch folds in the grooves transfer rotation.
Or in the case of PRBs out of smooth bores, not even that.

The OP simply wanted clarification about there being a requirement to engrave with his wheel-weight PRBs.
Answer: No.

Engraving rifling is a non-issue for PRBs.
The patch grips the ball and excess patch folds in the grooves transfer rotation.
Or in the case of PRBs out of smooth bores, not even that.

The OP simply wanted clarification about there being a requirement to engrave with his wheel-weight PRBs.
Answer: No.

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And it all works great as long as you use a felt wad between patch and powder or else there is burn thru due to the rifling not engraving the soft lead and accuracy is unobtanium, just depends on how many more ingredients an individual wants to add to the mix.

There is a reason soft lead has been used since the beginning, if loaded correctly over powder wads are not required.

I dont see why you would need the wad, when I did my test the patches were fine with no wad. They were not burnt. the patch will make your seal still.

Each rifle is unique and requirements are varied, I am of the "tighter load is better" group and a hard ball will not load with the patch material I use. My GM barrel has shallow grooves, not forgiving like the deeper round bottom rifling.

Then there is the question of obturation of soft lead in a muzzleloader, many nay sayers, yet the Lyman Black powder hand book shows a .445" roundball at 2200fps with signs of deformation due to the pressure behind the shock wave or was it due to set back at ignition ? spose this could be trick photography to sell books.

As you no doubt see, forums have no shortage of theories, LOL...you're on the right track as NOTHING beats your own hands on experience at the range and in the field.

Well I think they go egg shaped but I'm not about to try and explain why, there is only so much ridicule a body can take :rotf:

Seeing as the original question seems to have dealt with how much the round ball deforms when the powder charge shock wave strikes it from behind...

That depends on how heavy you load, the inertia of the ball, how much the ball is preformed and restrained at the time, whether you use a hard wad and who knows what all.
You're in control.

Squire Robin said:

Well I think they go egg shaped but I'm not about to try and explain why, there is only so much ridicule a body can take :rotf:

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And would that be egg shaped soft lead, wheel-weight lead, ITX balls, solid brass balls...tight bore, loose bore, over-bore size balls, bore size balls, under bore size, way under bore size, thin patch, thick patch, op wads, 3f, 2f, 1f, bp sub, at short start, or ramming, or seating, or rod bouncing, or 'stomping', or set-back...and if set-back would that be with light loads, heavy loads....on & on Ad Naseum...LOL

roundball said:

And would that be egg shaped soft lead, wheel-weight lead, ITX balls, solid brass balls...tight bore, loose bore, over-bore size balls, bore size balls, under bore size, way under bore size, thin patch, thick patch, op wads, 3f, 2f, 1f, bp sub, at short start, or ramming, or seating, or rod bouncing, or 'stomping', or set-back...and if set-back would that be with light loads, heavy loads....on & on Ad Naseum...LOL

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Yes :thumbsup: