What period would the 'trade knives' fit in to?

We all have seen 'em, those French and English 'trade knives' with the maple scales and 1095 steel blades at shows. TOTW, Log Cabin Shop and others sell 'em as well. What time period are these supposed to be from? Were knives like these used just in the early period of our country's history, say prior to 1800 or were they used through the 1800's as well? I suppose they could simply reflect no knife made before 1900 and just simply look 'neat' to most of us. :haha: Just curious. Thanks.

Post a picture, not sure what you are describing

The basic patterns of trade knives are still sold and used today. The knives you described did not really exist. Only in a loose general form, and are not good representations of early trade knives. The so called trade knives were imports until the early 1840's. They were bright finished and fitted with Beech wood, boxwood, and some exotic wood grips, but not maple. Good quality trade knife copies are not cheap, so those you mentioned fill a need for those not wanting to spend a lot. Although they are accepted at most events, they are simply not historically correct in a number of details, but do perform reasonably well in use, and cost about a third of a more correct copy.

http://www.trackofthewolf.com/List/Item.aspx/464/1

Here is Track's page, they say 1750-1790 but include Southwest trade and a Lewis and Clark...

I bought one of the English trades a while back, for $50 it has a decent blade...I've since skinned several deer with it, pretty cool...

I've been told they aren't PC but for the price, they are pretty similar and a good value...

Wick can you suggets a book that would show me what reproduced trade knives should really resemble? Christmas is coming and I could put it on my "list"??

LD

Yes those are the ones I'm refering to at Track.

Loyalist Dave said:

Wick can you suggets a book that would show me what reproduced trade knives should really resemble? Christmas is coming and I could put it on my "list"??

LD

Click to expand...

This is an oldie but a good one:
http://www.furtrade.org/store/books?product_id=126

And, although Wick is too modest to post pics, here's a very good reproduction of an English scalper:
http://www.wickellerbe.com/gallery/index.php?action=showfull&vpic=135&gll=5&tpic=18&maxp=32


Rod

Well I guess my next question is, since there are so many of these non-pc trade knives out there, how did this design/idea come to be???

Everybody likes a fancy knife, rather than the plain, common, and historically correct ones, maybe. I honestly don't know---I've gone to rendezvous where I've seen tables surrounded by customers and onlookers full of custom knives that are pure fantasy. Meanwhile noboy's giving a second glance (except me and guys like me) to vendors with correct scalpers, butchers, & cartouche knives. :idunno:

To each his own. While I admire the craftsmanship that goes into a fancy damascus-bladed knife with curly maple scales, I'll stick to my plain trade knives. I carry either a five-pin butcher or a common scalper. They do everything I'd ever ask of a knife.

Rod

In my case they were very inexpensive. I have two small knives, similar to the ones on the Track site, but they were about $12-$15 each. The smaller of the two is my skinning and patch knife, the larger is a camp knife. They are very sharp and keep their edge. The wood on the handles didn't matter to me... what I wanted was small, sharp, durable, and not too costly in case I lost the dang things while in the woods.

LD

Yes. That is a good book and worth twice what they price it at. I just wish there was more like it.

Rod, thanks for the book link. I had missed that one.

Well- this has always been sort of a pet peeve of mine so cut me some slack but in any event what bugs me is that reproductions are made that don't follow historical patterns. Why? It would be just as easy for these replicas (like those sold by TOW) to be exact copies of originals. It would cost no more to make an exact copy.
The "trade" knives have been around since the beginning of trade with the NDN tribes- first in the east and later in the west. Generally they were similar to what today is a working type, thin blade carving knife or boning knife. A tool that got used and in time got "used up" and discarded.
The cutlery Sketch Book by the Museum of the Fur Trade- that book is only $8 or so and really excellent. If I recall there may be a slight error such as a stamp belonging to a company rather than a maker but generally it is a very good book.
There was some level of variation in these trade knives. The early type with a Crown Stamp under King George- the belly near the point is often deeply curved like a butcher knife but later trade knives- stamped Hiram Cutler (Yep- that was really the guy's name) have a more pointy tip- like a French Chef's knife.
Some trade knives had the width of the blade the same as the width of the tang while other trade knives had a tang that was more narrow than the blade (Again- like a French Chef's knife).
As stated- before 1840 almost all trade knives were imported from Europe.
We tend to think that first there were the French trade knives and after England got sole control of Canada- English trade knives. Actually in the Hudson's Bay area and on the New York frontier in colonial days- there were English trade knives.
I'd say a 7" blade was the preferred length. The tang was about half the length of the handle. The handle could be one piece with a sawn slot in front into which the tang fit and was retained with 3 iron pins of around 3/32" diameter OR a two piece handle could be used and in that case there were 3 pins spread out over the length of the handle. Copper cutler rivets are 1880's and later. Some trade knife handles were diamond shaped in cross section but I believe most were squarish like a common butcher knife.
Both whites and NDNs used these knives. A lot of NDNs sharpened the blades using a file as a draw file and they sharpened on only one side- the theory is it helped prevent knicking a hide as the hide was skinned. Well.....maybe....I'm a fur trapper and I use a regular blade. One interesting thing on the one sided sharpening- it reduces the bevel in half, producing a really sharp edge. A lot of Sushi Knives are sharpened on only one side.
Boxwood, beechwood- common choices. You'll read alot about "red handled" trade knives. Apparantly various woods and dyes were used to obtain the red color. Camwood and Barwood are listed by the NW Co on 1820 invoices. Logwood- on the Missouri. I think mention was made on the Lewis and Clark Expedition on the red handled knives and dye was suggested as the coloring agent. I think it was logwood.

Rod L said:

Everybody likes a fancy knife, rather than the plain, common, and historically correct ones, maybe. I honestly don't know---I've gone to rendezvous where I've seen tables surrounded by customers and onlookers full of custom knives that are pure fantasy. Meanwhile noboy's giving a second glance (except me and guys like me) to vendors with correct scalpers, butchers, & cartouche knives. :idunno:

To each his own. While I admire the craftsmanship that goes into a fancy damascus-bladed knife with curly maple scales, I'll stick to my plain trade knives. I carry either a five-pin butcher or a common scalper. They do everything I'd ever ask of a knife.

Rod

Click to expand...

My "carry knife" that I use at events is plain hardwood handle, three rivets ala Wilson all very plain with iron pins. I have been ridiculed, "how come a guy like you has such a cheap knife?" I made my knife and it is perfect, a perfect copy of a British trade knife ca; 1800 - 1840. They don't get it.

So, Rod, do you remember the AMA guys that were at the Fur Trade Symposium, Three Forks, that were camped behind the Sacagewea Hotel? The one fellow was a blacksmith and he had a couple PERFECT copies of British trade knives. I picked one of them up and admired it and made a comment how much I liked it. He said I was the only person who had even looked at that knife since he had made it. Everybody was interested in the fancy knives with exotic wood and bright brass pins. That is the reason why TOW and Crazy Crow and others sell non ph/hc knives. People aren't interested in the plain albeit correct knives. Also I might add, that trade knife, as plain as it was was very well made and was $80.00. Not cheap at all. If I didn't already have my current knife I would have bought it.

I agree Crocket.

First though we must remember that the folks making the knives are bound in part by the market. Less informed consumers (and this includes the folks who are the "jury" at juried events) gives you less than an accurate product, right? Add to that the fact that the consumer base is not limited to living history buffs, but also includes survivalists, off-the-gridders, and folks who like "antique lookin'" stuff. When a craftsman is looking to pay bills, they can't limit themselves to purists, alas.

For example, I can think of at least five different sheath knives on the market that are called "Nessmuk", but none of those five actually follow the pattern of the knife carried by George Washington Sears. Also I have seen two double bitted hand axes with the same name also made wrong.

When some craft person begins to make correct knives at the same or lower price than the incorrect but popular knives out there, and we start buying them and spread the word, it may get better.

LD

Thanks for posting Wick's page. I thought I had seen pages for most all of the good craftsman working today but this was a first time for me. Will bookmark, covet and maybe even one day posses one of his fine pieces....Mick :hatsoff:

Same here. This is the first time I've seen his page. And I've already picked out the knife I want. Now I just have to save up for it.

Here are better examples of 18th c. Scalpers than that link shows. First is English, second is French. These are, within reason, just about exact to originals as according to available resource material. As far as I know, no one has yet found a completely intact, unaltered French type, but period records give pretty good info on them. The English, not so much. On either, the grips over shoot the tangs underneath leaving a gap, however it seems the French grips were a closer fit than the English, and both extended the grip into the blade area at the front ends. The common scalpers of either origin are partial tapered tanged, although it may be that at least some of the English scalpers were not taper tanged. As for terminology, I have heard objections to calling these types "scalpers". However, the English described them as such in their shipping ledgers. The French called theirs "Boucherons".

Thanks Wick! :hatsoff:

LD

Really, really good information and opinions here, folks! This is why I love this forum.