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rijerolmon

40 Cal.
Joined
Mar 25, 2010
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I am in process of having an early Hawken built. Full stock,flint,.58cal GM 1:70,iron mounted.Looking for input regarding straight or curved trigger and metal finishing. I would like to be as HC as possible but it will be a hunting rifle.
 
Let me get this straight....you are having a Hawken built by somebody who doesn't know the answers to these questions???

Is that right???? :confused: Enjoy, J.D.
 
I'm no expert, but from what I've read, other than a J. Hawken (I think it was) from about 1822, there have been no confirmed Hawken fullstock flintlocks. (And it was a Penn longrifle style). I'm not saying there weren't any. I'm sure there are some much more knowledable people out there who can tell me I'm wrong.

But with that said, if it was me, I certainly like the looks of the "early Hawken, plains, Rocky Mountain, double throated flintlock, fullstock rifle" (or what ever you want to call it). For me, that would certainly be an acceptable rendezvous/hunting rifle. I had a friend in Germany who had one he built from a TOW kit and it was pretty nice. No frills, but a good looking/shooting gun. Personnally I like a straight front trigger and a nice browned finish.

For some people, it would not be acceptable, but for me and the groups I've been a part of, it was fine. :2
 
There was some variation. The barrel was often browned and the other hardware blued or case hardened- not sure on the trigger. The Bullafo Bill center in Cody, WY has some Hawken rifles.
 
.58 Caliber! You hunting moose up there in Maine, I also thought that most Hawkens were .50 to .54 caliber?. Not to throw cold water on you BTW, just thinking out loud. I'm also in the group about fullstock Hawken rifles, there maybe some halfstock flints out there, but I don't know about the fullstock.
 
Just a practical insight without reference to historic accuracy:

Once I got my first double trigger with the front trigger straight, I felt like I had died and gone to heaven. Call me simple minded, but when both triggers are curved, I'd often grab the wrong trigger in the heat of the moment, especially with gloves. No such tendency with different shapes. If you're worried about accurate reproduction, if you can find a single example with a straight front trigger, go for it.

As for caliber in Hawken rifles? Shoot. There were lots, so don't worry about being "average" when you're putting your own money into a custom. My GRRW Hawken is a 58 cal with tapered barrel and all. Gotta say it's my favorite shooter in a rack of close to 30 rifles.
 
The builder knows what he would do but he is building it for me. I am looking for help in selecting the trigger style as I have never used a straight trigger and this rifle will be hunted (deer,bear and if I ever get the lottery pick moose).I have been undecided rather to brown or go with a "worn" blue look.Not looking to join the Hawken full stock flint debate just have my first (and probably my last)custom rifle look right and be user friendly. Thanks for the input and assistance.
 
One more thing to consider- Long barrel Hawkens can get heavy, and muzzle-heavy with straight barrels. My GRRW is a joy to handle and shoot due to it's tapered barrel (1 1/8" x 1" x 36"). Seems to have exactly the right muzzle weight for me, but not as heavy as a lot of guys like.

But here's the kicker: It weighs a whopping 12# plus a few ounces. That thing was definitely intended for horseback carry! Or at least as I move more into geezerhood, it's making me miss our horses more and more. It might be my favorite rifle, but it's the last one I reach for when the days, walks and climbs are going to be long. My 28" Investarms 58 caliber "Hawken" with it's skinny 15/16" 28" barrel tips the scale just under 9#, and it gets the nod more often than not.
 
I just looked through Jim Gordon's book "Great Gunmakers for the Early West, Volume III, Western U.S." There are pictures of 37 Hawkens there and they all have straight front triggers. I just saw three more up in Montana (including the Jim Bridger Hawken, which is in this book). The other two are new, I've never seen their photos before, and they have straight front triggers, too. The trigger you want is Track's TR-PA-20, by Ron Long. A curved trigger just doesn't look right. As for metal finish, all except the barrel, including the breech plug and tang, can be heat-blued, and the barrel can be blued or browned. Brownells Oxpho blue works well, it will wear off but can be easily touched up. Doc White of the old Green River Rifle Works likes Brownell's Belgian Blue. He heats the metal in hot water and does 8 coats. He said Birchwood Casey Plum Brown also works well on metal heated with a torch.
 
Here are two of mine. both .58 caliber. I really like the L&R Late English "Ashmore" lock. If you want a lot of trouble, use the "Flint Hooked Breech and Tang", Track's part #Plug-LRF-16-3. If you want a far better flintlock, use Track's "Hawken's 1" Flint Breech and Tang" or better yet the solid "Hawken Flint "Beavertail Tang" Plug", #Plug-BT-16-3". This last is solid and does not unhook.
Hawk58fullflint.jpg

58HawkenFullJPG.jpg
 
While some Hawkens appear to have browned barrels due to aging, blued was the basic color as used by the Bros Hawken -

The few Hawkens in good enough condition to see original barrel finish are blued. The blue is fairly dark. I like the color I get by doing a satin slow rust brown, followed by boiling the barrel in water to duplicate the color. When doing the rust blue, don't overpolish or you get too bright a color. It is not the deep translucent blue seen on European guns. The rib and thimbles were also blued.
The breech and tang were case hardened as well as the lock, butt plate, trigger guard, trigger bar,entry thimble and nose cap. Not the highly colored case of modern firearms but a mottled grey case that some of the early makers called forge casing.

Per Don Stith - who has detail examined more originals than anyone I know of

as for barrel types the most common (based on existing Hawkens) were tapered, but swamped barrels are not unknown. Lengths on the early known Hawken rifles range from 36" to 42".
Early barrels also tend to be smaller in "diameter than the later post 1849 rifles. A good breech size is 1-1 1/16" tapering to 7/8" - 15/16" if tapered.

If you can afford it I would get an appropriate lock from Bob Roller - the ne plus ultra of flintlocks - they cost about double but are well worth it. Second best IMO for an early Hawken - Chambers late Ketland.

The cast hardware is mostly available at various suppliers such as Track of the Wolf but beware of labeling - some pieces marked as Hawken were actually cast from Dimick parts. You can also get the more traditional hand forged parts (butt plate, trigger guard - BTW the flat to the wrist style often noted as being early does not show up on originals until after 1840 - look at the guard on the Dunham Hawken for the earlier style or see this one http://old.bbhc.org/collections/bb...ct_key=22284&img=/canon1d2005/1997.4.2v5.jpg, - note how the scroll is more round than oval)from a couple of good makers.

Triggers - yep I like the straight front real well and definitely PC/HC for Hawkens

If the maker is building the stock from a stick tow of the earliest dated rifles are here and this is a real correct butt stock style not often seen by makers: http://www.wrtcleather.com/1-ckd/firearms-hawken/hawken-1.jpg
http://old.bbhc.org/collections/bb...ect_key=22284&img=/canon1d2005/1997.4.2v2.jpg

If I wanted to build a pre-1830 or early 1830's style Hawken I would use either of these as a stock pattern and it can easily be adapted to full-stock. In fact the second rifle shows some indications that it may have started life as a full-stock and later was "sportserized"
 
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There is one f/s hawken that had what looks like conversion to precussion marks on the lock. Just looking at a j&s hawkin at the nra museum at a 36" .38 cal with a 1 1/4 untapered barrel
 
You might contact Don Stith & ask him a few questions on them. He knows Hawkin rifles better than anyone I know. You can Google him & get his contact info.

Keith Lisle
 
I agree, Don Stith is the go-to-Hawken, expert. I am in the same shooting club with Don, and top Gun builders, seek his advice.
 
Here is Jim Bridger's rifle which I photographed at the Montana Historical Society September 9, about a week ago. That barrel looks browned to me. Doc White had this rifle at the GRRW for two years and 3 months and he told me the barrel was browned. He has handled 32 original Hawkens and shot three of them, including the Bridger rifle.
BridgerTang_zps29607165.jpg
 
I miked Jim Bridger's rifle barrel just ahead of the snail, at 1.185 inches. The muzzle diameter 33 inches away was 1.120. The difference, .065, is the thickness of a new penny, so the "taper" is only about .032" per side. Carl Walker at GRRW said the barrel is not tapered, and that you could make that much difference with a file. I haven't miked any other original Hawken barrels.
 
That's roughly 1/2 the taper of the barrel on my GRRW 58 cal Hawken (1 1/8" x 1" x 36"). While the taper makes a considerable difference in the handling of mine, I doubt it would be noticeable in the Bridger.

I also have a custom 58 cal with a tapered barrel I picked up used. It's an oddball at 1 1/8" x 15/16" x 26". Atsa lot of taper in a short tube, and it feels absolutely "whippy" compared to any other rifle I've handled. Quick as a snakebite for fast shooting in close quarters, but worse than bad for sustained aiming on a range.

Dunno why I'm telling you all this, other than to wonder why anyone would go to the trouble of installing so little taper. I doubt I'm smart enough to notice it when shouldering the Bridger.
 
Question on that Hawken, if it is the one I am thinking of it was converted to a drum type percussion but whether it was first a flintlock or had a patten breech- I can't recall. If it was orginially a flint there would be plugged holes for the frizzen spring, etc. As I said- I don't know what it was originally but it was my understanding that flintlock Hawken rifles (the mountain rifle- not the one from Ohio) were rare to non-existent.
 
Hello Herb

Thanks for that nice picture...
Did you take more pictures of the Brigger Hawken when you saw it recently? It would be nice if you could post them maybe in a seperate thread here and it full resolution. The pictures available of this gun on the web so far are all rather old and of not too good quality.

thanks a lot
Uwe
 
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