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400 yard hits with a patched round ball

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Have you ever done any shooting at 400 yards,especially with a PRB? If not you should try it and get a quick education about the subject.
Open sight shooting at these distances is also another very difficult thing to pull off on a man size target.
As far as I know the Indians were never sold target rifles but rather poorly made trade guns and some average built rifles. These had no siting provision for long distance shooting,it would be Kentucky windage all the way, in other words guess work.
Taking proper care of them would have been another factor for combatants on the run.
A round ball is coming down hill like a meteor at even 200 yards let alone 400 making routine hits on a man with open sighting rather improbable from an experienced marksman let alone a whole tribe of them.
For these reasons I have great doubt about the accounts of long range sniping by numerous Indian combatants with very average open sighted rifles. Mike D.
 
Second, WHY must the Indians have been able to make super long range shots (which is the only way the white folks could imagine the Indians were able to shoot the sentries.), and why are you so dead-set on THAT being the truth?

Well, the changes in vegetation thing has been answered, and yes, changes were as profound in Florida as they have been most everywhere else in the Lower 48. Fire suppression, fenced grazing, agriculture and introduced species have a way of doing that.

And I would counter, why are you so quick to dismiss it?

A moments google reveals Gaines was stalled out for eight days while attempting to cross the Cove of the Withlacootchie ["Ouithlacootchie" in the original reference] River in the spring of 1836, a situation so unexpected and desperate that they were forced to eat their dogs and mules.

An officer named Izard was killed early on attempting the crossing, Gaines himself was wounded. An impromptu fortification (Fort Izard) was constructed on the river bank.

OK, so we have a situation of accurate aimed fire across some distance of open water. This was early in the conflict so one might assume that the Seminoles may not have yet been plagued by severe shortages of powder and ammunition.

Should be a simple matter to search up "the Battle of Camp Izard" for more specifics.

In the meantime, during that interminable week, what could be more natural than for entrenched Seminoles to make a sport of "shoot the sentry across the river"?

I'd guess wagers and bragging rights were involved.

Birdwatcher
 
A round ball is coming down hill like a meteor at even 200 yards let alone 400 making routine hits on a man with open sighting rather improbable from an experienced marksman let alone a whole tribe of them.

Why do we need to be talking "a whole tribe"?
...and give a number, what constitutes "a whole tribe" anyway?

Just like any other bunch of Southern backwoods guys of that era, some would be better than others, some would have better guns, but most all would be practiced marksmen.

Again, quite outside of the pop history to which many subscribe, in widely separated times and places Indians actually demonstrated notably skilled marksmanship with firearms.

And we also know that credible modern recreational shooters are claiming predictable 325 yard hits on 14" targets.

Birdwatcher
 
I have to wonder what the point is even talking about these kinds of ranges. This is a sport of using a very old, antique/obsolete, technology to shoot. Wanna do the modern stuff? OK, but go do modern, we don't need or want it here.

Egad man! Why on earth not? 400-yard pot shots on a human silhouette in a controlled range setting should be an absolute hoot :grin:

Surely no more frivolous or dangerous than the way-cool blockhouse shoot relay at running Indian silhouettes at Friendship :grin:

And from another viewpoint, this was brought up here because a number of witnesses from back then state it actually happened. Surely this is of interest.

Birdwatcher
 
Look up the dade massacre gor insight into indian tactics.

More likely surprise ambush
 
I'd like to, but that was with a paper patched conical :grin:

Anyways, progress....

http://www.southernhistory.us/Counties/c4mari.htm

According to the map and description by one of the soldiers present, Woodburne Potter, the stockade was on a peninsula about 700-800 yards wide, with a pond in the middle that provided water. The area was large enough that the Seminoles' rifle shots could reach the soldiers, but far enough away so the soldiers' musket shots could not reach the Seminoles.

Birdwatcher
 
Florida artist Jackson Walker's conception of the battle, I'd presume well-informed, note the open terrain, open enough that by all accounts the range of the firearms involved became critical.

BattleatCampIzard-DayTwo_zps8a832de7.jpg


Birdwatcher
 
54ball said:
Brown Bear says
I'll remain skeptical about called 400 yard hits on single targets with round balls, much less 300 yard hits, until I see it happen. One hit could be luck, so do it three times in a row, and I'll be convinced.

It does not matter what you or I think. Long shots with roundball rifles are documented all through the period.

As well documented as their skill at measuring distances! :rotf: I still call it for what it is: :bull:
 
Birdwatcher said:
Florida artist Jackson Walker's conception of the battle, I'd presume well-informed, note the open terrain, open enough that by all accounts the range of the firearms involved became critical.

BattleatCampIzard-DayTwo_zps8a832de7.jpg


Birdwatcher

Yup. Looks like a whole 50 yards from their line to the trees spouting smoke.
 
Yup. Looks like a whole 50 yards from their line to the trees spouting smoke.

I'm seeing smoke way down that treeline, which brings up the point, how exactly does one "hide the smoke" as previously suggested they did when shooting a BP rifle from 200 yards or less?

And if that near treeline really was just 50 yards, why was the US rifles' inability to reach past 120 yards a problem?

What we CAN see is that 700-800 yard peninsula was mostly open. Furthermore the US troops were pinned behind an exceedingly flimsy and low breastwork in a standoff lasting more than a week.

EXACTLY the conditions that would encourage long range pot shots by bored Indians.

Further support is that Gaines only actually lost five guys dead, one of whom was Izard. How many ft pounds does a .50 cal roundball have left at 400 yards anyhow, 150?

General Edmund P. Gaines, who made those 400 yard claims weren't no desk general either. He enlisted in 1799 at the age of 22 and rose through the ranks.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Edmund_P._Gaines

He was repeatedly in the thick of the action in the War of 1812, receiving at that time the Nation's highest military honor for valor while commanding a bloody repulse of the Brits at Fort Erie.

But wait, it gets better :grin: When not at war he was employed as a SURVEYOR for chrissakes :grin:

OK, he could have fudged his reports to "save face" but nothing about the man suggests a guy who cared what his superiors thought, check out his near court-martial in the Mexican War.

Finally, a standard of morality which only the likes of a Davy Crockett passed: In the prime of his career Gaines publically opposed Indian Removal, a move guaranteed to get you on Andy Jackson's manure list AND get you voted out of office. In short, hardly the move of a suck-up or sycophant.

I'm gonna take him at his word; if Gaines said 400 yards it probably was.

After all why else would he make otherwise outlandish claims in an era where EVERYONE knew the capabilities of a long rifle?

Birdwatcher
 
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As well documented as their skill at measuring distances!

OK, this is where you trip over into Looney Tunes land :shake:

Weren't too many skills more critical in the early 19th Century than surveying.
 
First, I'd like to let you guys know how utterly entertaining I'm finding this whole thread. :grin:

A point I'd like to contribute is that the person estimating the range was on the receiving end of the fire. We have no statement from the shooters.

For the sake of arguement say it was 400 yards. We have no way of knowing if the bullets were hitting where they were aimed or just randomly dropping in, do we? It's called volley fire....send enough rounds down range and they are likely to hit something.

Even a blind squirrel finds a nut sometimes.

With Timothy Murphy we at least had witnesses on both sides. :wink: Enjoy, J.D.
 
With Timothy Murphy we at least had witnesses on both sides.

Surely you jest :grin: I was just AT Saratoga last week. I forget exactly how many years after the fact ol' Tim Murphy's name first came out in print.

Anyways, on the subject of practical range and elevation estimation I doubt few people of any skin tone would be better than guys who had grown up in an era where the long rifle and the patched round ball was the epitome of rifle technology.

We know that frequent target contests with the same were common with folks as diverse as the Shawnees who hosted Daniel Boone in the 1780's to virtually every White community in America by the 1830's.

So, I suggest that Seminoles dropping balls on the heads of those unfortunate sentries at 400 yards was no more "lucky" than was Billy Dixon's celebrated 1,500 yard (??) "scratch" shot at Adobe Walls, a shot he himself always stated he probably couldn't have made twice.

YMMV,
Birdwatcher
 
Murphy aside. :stir: I was merely trying to inject some logic into this string that thus far has been no more than an arguement over who's conjecture makes the most sense.

I'll go back to observing and being entertained. :haha: :haha: :haha: Enjoying, J.D.
 
Interesting string of comments.None of us being there all we can do is opine. About 30 years ago some friens and I shot off a bluff at a rock we estimated was 350 yards aaway and we were 200 feet above it.After 4 or 5 shots we started hiting near it.Since military formations put men close together then I wonder if you could hit some one in a group by holding on the top of the tree line.As to forest cover this was 1st growth forest in flat land I don't know if you could have a clear line of sight or not.I think "random shot " killing some one in your group from 3or 400 yards might be just a little disquieting.Remember the last words of Civil war General Sedgwick..."they couldn't hit an elephant at this dis.."
 
I have been shooting MLR's since the mid 60's and I have to admit that I have never shot at anything over 200 years with all but a few shots were 100 yards or less.

I do however belong to a 500 yard rifle range that we can take guests to. The vast majority have no idea what targets at 3 , 4 and 500 yards look like. At 400 yards a 24 inch gong painted white against a green hill side is nearly impossible to see in open sights. Not just for me but the vast majority.

Just a couple of points. There were no range finders back in the day. Many of the shooting supplies were catch as catch can. Powder quality was as good then as today but the storage and transport may not have been.

There is always that these were chance meetings of a very lucky shooter and a very unlucky target. At 400 yards wouldn't the wound be on the top of the head? Geo. T.
 
Just for something to think about I ran my computers roundball trajectory program for a .58 caliber round ball (.570 dia) at 1800 fps muzzle velocity.

It doesn't go to 400 yards but it does go to 380 in its listings.

At 380 yards, that .570 diameter roundball will hit 338 inches below the point of aim if the sights are set for 100 yards. That's 28.167 feet below the point of aim.

Put another way, our marxman would have to aim at a point 28.167 above the mans body.

A 3 mile an hour crosswind 90 degrees to the shot will deflect the ball 40.5 inches off of the point of aim.

Now, one must ask, how did this sharpshooter know he needed to aim 28 feet above the target?
It isn't like powder and ball were plentiful among the indians.
It isn't like they had nothing better to do than to squander the powder and ball that was needed to provide food just to find out how high they needed to aim at a target about 1/4 mile away.

This whole thing sounds like a mixture of one Army officer trying to find a good reason for loosing some men and pure luck on the part of the Indian, assuming the story is even true.

:td:
 
I recently won the long gong shoot at Seneca Oregon. I hit the 30" gong at 284 yards the second shot. With no wind, If I knew the range I am sure I could hit it at 400 yds one out of three. Last years winner hit the gong at 325 yds the first shot with a 50 cal Thompson center Hawken. His load was 120 grs of ffg 495 prb.
My load was 120 grs of ffg and a 575 prb.My gun has a 32" barrel. His was a 28" I think.
400 yard shot are not impossible at all. They are just very difficult. Some people back then practiced that stuff.
 
Zonie.
What is the drop at 400 if the gun is sighted at 200? Velocity 1800fps.
 

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