Pedersoli Gibbs .45 six shots at 100 meters

fleener · Jun 28, 2013

As I stated in my email I have never heard of anyone using it in a rifle like this or in other words a long range ML. Certainly in a revolver. But why in a rifle like this? There is no need for a filler. I have been shooting LRML for a few years now and have shot with the best in the world in this sport and have never heard of anyone using a filler. Does not mean we might not be missing somthing or can't learn. But again what purpose does it serve?

Fleener

zimmerstutzen · Jun 28, 2013

Seems the proof is right there before every one's eyes.

It is indeed refreshing to see a tight group at one hundred meters or even 100 yards that really is a good group. Good shooting, Sir!

I don't consider anything a group at less than 5 shots, and according to what I read, Harry Pope didn't consider less than 10 shots to be a group.

That is indeed something to brag about. You have also set the bar pretty high for yourself to do even better in the future.

Years ago, I ran into a shooter who would load his powder and then a carefully folded and rolled piece of toilet tissue followed by a pea sized dollop of white lithium grease. He loaded a 500 grain bullet on top of that and he was shooting 100 yard groups offhand that I would have been proud of off the bench. I have since shrunk my groups but Reb could drive them in there all day.

longcruise · Jun 28, 2013

Seems the proof is right there before every one's eyes.

Not "proof" of anything. It's a very nice group, measures just a hair over 2". But there is no comparison group shot without filler. If a group shot without filler opened up to five or six inches it would say something.

Bon Sauvage · Jun 28, 2013

Mooman76 said:
I've used cream of wheat and also corn meal. I also used drier lent in cartridges.

For hunting loads I use salt. I find it effective in preserving the meat given the extreme ranges that I shoot my game. :wink:

zimmerstutzen · Jun 28, 2013

Proof enough that it "couldn't hurt"

That is roughly 109 yds. Haven't seen much that was equivalent or better posted here.

We have posters saying how much wads help behind their PRBs or bullets.

I have seen better groups out of custom cross patch slug guns and I have had a very few days with better groups with prbs out of my 45 caliber H&A. Harry Pope guaranteed better groups out of his barrels.

But with an Italian Production gun, that is good. Good for any production gun.

To an extent, I experimented with flour over black powder many years ago. It made for an impressive muzzle flash as it burned out side the muzzle, but I never tried it with anything but a prb.

Dphar · Jun 28, 2013

zimmerstutzen said:
Proof enough that it "couldn't hurt"

That is roughly 109 yds. Haven't seen much that was equivalent or better posted here.

We have posters saying how much wads help behind their PRBs or bullets.

I have seen better groups out of custom cross patch slug guns and I have had a very few days with better groups with prbs out of my 45 caliber H&A. Harry Pope guaranteed better groups out of his barrels.

But with an Italian Production gun, that is good. Good for any production gun.

To an extent, I experimented with flour over black powder many years ago. It made for an impressive muzzle flash as it burned out side the muzzle, but I never tried it with anything but a prb.

Good shooting. The Gibbs has had a rep as a match winner for sometime now.
Besides giving protection to the bullet base it probably increases load inertia. Mls don't have a good way to increase load inertia as cartridge rifles do and low inertia can produce vertical stringing at longer ranges.

Dan

Saltner · Jun 28, 2013

As already said, the corn flour and wheat at the time of combustion of black powder absorbs the thrust of the gas on the bullet.
Tomorrow I'm going to shoot and try to experiment with the flour and without.
I also made the bullets with 5% tin and try to load 85-90 grains of Swiss No. 3.

cynthialee · Jun 28, 2013

fleener said:
As I stated in my email I have never heard of anyone using it in a rifle like this or in other words a long range ML. Certainly in a revolver. But why in a rifle like this? There is no need for a filler. I have been shooting LRML for a few years now and have shot with the best in the world in this sport and have never heard of anyone using a filler. Does not mean we might not be missing somthing or can't learn. But again what purpose does it serve?

Fleener

An inert powder like cream of wheat, corn meal or whatever takes the place of an over powder wad. It helps prevent damage to the patch from the detonation of the powder.

fleener · Jun 28, 2013

These two pictures are of targets I shot while working up a load for this particular rifle. Both targets were shot at 200 yards and are 5 shots each. Bullets are GG with homemade lube and are around 540 grains, and are a 20:1 lead/tin ratio. Powder was 1.5 swiss. no wads, no fillers. Rifle is a Don Brown kit.

I post these picture to show what is possible with a LRML. IMO if your load is not shooting 1.25 inches or smaller at 100 yards you need to keep working on your load or get rid of the rifle. I am not happy until I can get it at or below MOA at 100 yards. The pictures dont show the 3" groups that are also on the target in the loads that the rifle did not like so well.

Gianluca: I think it is wonderful that you are playing with rifle and trying to get it to shoot well, and that you are willing to share your pictures with us. You certainly are on the right path. I think that you will find that you do not and should put any filler with your load.

As I stated I have shot with and against the best shooters in the world in LRML and I have never heard of anyone using a filler. If it improved my groups, I would certainly use it however.

The Gibbs is a fine rifle and has done wonders to the long range sport. I have been beaten many of times by a Gibbs.

You might want to be careful with 3F and the heavy loads. They seem to burn out the nipples quite quickly. I dont have any experience with 3 F in these rifles, the smallest I use is 2F. My buddy Rick Weber makes nipples for long range shooters and just passing on what he tells me.

I have played around with and without wads. My best targets seem to of been without wads, but the past couple of years I have been using wads. Since I clean between each shot, leading has not been an issue for me.

Good luck and keep us posted on your progress.

Perhaps one day we will get to meet at a match.

Fleener

Saltner · Jun 29, 2013

I use the powder Swiss No. 3, which corresponds to FFG, in a few days a friend brings me to the Swiss No. 4, which corresponds to 1.5 FG and I'm curious to try it.
I would be grateful if you tell me how much black powder uses and how much draw (.449 - .450?) the bullet.
Thank you.

fleener · Jun 29, 2013

The load that I am currently using is 85 grains of 2F swiss. The bullets are sized to .451 and in a clean bore the weight of the loading rod will almost push them down the bore. My barrel will not be the same dia. as yours. The gibbs are a little tighter if I remember right. Are you using a powder tube/funnel? I took a brass tube and attached a small funnel for dropping the powder into the barrel. Keeps any of the powder off of the wall of the barrel. An aluminum arrow with the ends cut off works as well.

The lube I use is equal parts of bees wax and criso which is a vegtable shortning used for baking in the USA, and a little bit of olive oil. I use a lubersizer to size and lube my bullets.

Now if you are not planning on shooting 800 - 1,000 yards a lighter load will work if your rifle likes it. At 500 yards I used to shoot 68 grains, but at 1,000 it is a little light, so I shoot 85 at all ranges now.

Fleener

Saltner · Jun 29, 2013

Thank you, today I tried your same charge 85 grains of 2F swiss bullet with 520 grains (20:1 lead / tin), draw .450, but I have had good results, do you believe that the bullets wrapped shoot better?Use the original bullet mold that Pedersoli factory with pure lead bullets from 532 grains.

fleener · Jun 29, 2013

A lot of the top shooter use only a paper patched bullet. I have never gotten around to trying them. I have some that I have been wanting to try for the past year but time is an issue for me. You simply have to try. And see what your rifle likes. I have won several matches including 3rd place long range team in the world matches, national championships, and two national records with grease groove bullets.

When working up a load a few grains of powder might make a big difference in your accuracy. I assume you weight your powder charges?

Fleener

Saltner · Jul 27, 2013

Another recharge my Pedersoli Gibbs, five shots with conical bullet 535 grains, lubricated with 70% beeswax and 30% of margarine, 60 grains of black powder Swiss No. 3 and wad done with cardboard coasters for beer between powder and bullet.

Carl Fowler III · Jul 27, 2013

Not "proof" of anything. It's a very nice group, measures just a hair over 2". But there is no comparison group shot without filler. If a group shot without filler opened up to five or six inches it would say something.[/quote]

Curious as to how you arrived at a 2" group from that there photo with the Euro? Seems to me to be a 1-1/8 or smaller group measured from center to center, and if you figure to measure from center of group to center of outside shot then you only have 9/16" varience from center! :stir: This seems to me to be an excellent group at 100 meters! :v

petew · Jul 27, 2013

bet you don't wear Bifocals. That is some very good shooting. I wish I could do that.:bow:

Saltner · Jul 28, 2013

The charge is the same as the picture with one euro coin, but this time i did not use the filler and lubricate the bullet instead of with 50% beeswax / 50% vaseline, i used 30% beeswax / 70% margarine.
Too bad for the flyer :idunno:

For the moment, thank God .... I do not use glasses

Saltner · Jul 28, 2013

Gianluca said:
Another recharge my Pedersoli Gibbs, five shots with conical bullet 535 grains, lubricated with 30% beeswax and 70% of margarine, 60 grains of black powder Swiss No. 3 and wad done with cardboard coasters for beer between powder and bullet.

Saltner · Jul 28, 2013

Gianluca said:
The charge is the same as the picture with one euro coin, but this time i did not use the filler and lubricate the bullet instead of with 50% beeswax / 50% vaseline, i used 30% beeswax / 70% margarine.
Too bad for the flyer :idunno:

For the moment, thank God .... I do not use glasses

excuse me, i have written vaseline, but it was 50% paraffin

nkbj · Jul 28, 2013

Good shooting.

Pedersoli Gibbs .45 six shots at 100 meters

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