Period Correct??

I was generally very accepting of your step by step logic of the development of the diamond shelter. But as I thought about it more, the question I came up with was this: If it was necessary to cover your pack animal's load with the canvas used to create the diamond, (assumed from getting wet with rain), then what sense does it make to take said canvas OFF the precious load, leaving it to be UNprotected from the rain, just to NOW use it to protect the MM from the same rain event? Wouldn't he want to keep the precious cargo protected by the canvas from the rain while he slept?

Thanks for the comment. I was not trying to describe what I believe was the shelter of choice historically but how the diagonal use of a square to rectangular pack cloth is not an unreasonable speculation.

To your point, depending on the size of the load covered by the pack cloth it is possible to put much if not all of the load under the pack cloth if you sleep diagonally under it under the two triangular areas to the sides. Also, if you have two pack animals with pack cloths the second could be used to pack the loads of both animals under one cloth (since it could be stacked higher and more compactly on the ground than on the sides of an animal). All this being said, my experience in the woods (of the west at least) there is always a nice fairly large dry spot next to the trunk of a pine or fir tree that negates the need for any other shelter. Just don't put a fire under the sheltering branches at least not one of any size in the spring, summer, or fall and after the snow falls anywhere near them (it tends to come down out of the branches at the most inopportune time. Where pine or fir trees are not available there may be caves to provide shelter and finally there is always cutting small trees and limbs to construct a shelter (although doing this today in most parts of the country will result in a hefty fine and/or jail time). Sometimes it just isn't legal to be historically or period correct.

Alright, I can see that makes sense. Thanks.

Sometimes it just isn't legal to be historically or period correct.

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This is very true. Some sites and some insurance companies require the tentage to meet flame retardant requirements..., the hand sewn, linen canvas, bell backed tent, with painted seams done with boiled linseed oil is not going to meet that requirement.

Why would one lug about an iron tripod when one could simply lash together three saplings and make a tripod, especially if that's what they did way back in the day? When one is at a state or county park, often the Rangers or park employees get nervous when they think you cut them poles from live trees within the park..., even if you cut them three years ago, and if you take a look at them they are good and dry and obviously not recently cut.

I saw a domed shelter a few years ago where the "Native" reenactor went out and got a birch bark sample, then went to Lowe's and had them copy the color, and then painted cotton canvas so that when the shelter was set up, it looked like a birch bark shelter. Not PC at all, but it "looked right" and wasn't any worse than the white, sunforger, cotton canvas tents surrounding it. :grin:

LD

First time I tried a primitve treck in 1973 i had a square of canvas as a tent.Over a week out and with out any clues on seting it up i pitched it as a 1/2 wedge I set it up as a pup tent.diomend.half faced depending on where i was at come evening and how much time i had> I know lots of folks think it didn't exist unless they wrote it down, but i think a man did what he did and didn't stop to make a jornal note about it

I know lots of folks think it didn't exist unless they wrote it down, but i think a man did what he did and didn't stop to make a jornal note about it

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The fundamental question is:
Would a particular person, in a particular place, at a particular time have had a square of canvas to begin with?

tenngun said:

I know lots of folks think it didn't exist unless they wrote it down,

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Then those folks fail to understand what documentation is. While first hand accounts are a form of documentation, they are only a part of the historic evidence aka: "documentation". Trade lists, ship cargo records, objects recovered from datable sites, patent records, probate records, tax records, are all documentation of what was available and in use at a given place & time.

Another fundamental flaw:
Some people think that if something was available somewhere (in the 18th century), then it was universally available everywhere.

This couldn't be further from the truth, when one takes into consideration the trade and economy of the time.

One should try to think using an 18th century mindset when pondering questions about the 18th century. Applying 21st century thinking to the 18th century doesn't work very well, leading us to make assumptions unsupported by evidence.

It is difficult to get out of our own time. We have had the benefit
of millions of images due to tv, movies, newspapers, magazines, books & the internet. Often we are not even aware of all the stuff hidden somewhere in our minds so we come up with something that seems purely intuitive and we assume that surely they must have thought of this "back then" - but while just as smart as we are, they didn't have the vast amount of information to build with as we do today.

Well maybe I missed something here.If we are talking about the westren fur trade mm time then yes russian sheating is recorded.Any thing you could buy in st louis was found out west.If we are going to except cotton canvas tipis then we have to accept cotton canvas russian sheating.My experince in the high lonesome is snow any month of the year.Sleeping out on cold clear night is ok.In rain or snow you best get some cover up or youll not last long.Even if it was only a blanket set on an angle.Any pack cover could be made in to a dimond shelter to give you the most room in the smallest piece of cover.The frontier had away of straining out the stupid.

Just a clarification---Russia sheeting is hemp linen canvas, not cotton. Russia historically was a major source of hemp fabric, hence the name.

I'll agree that for western fur trade Russia sheeting is mentioned, but I don't see it being sold in the quantities you'd expect if used for shelter. Don't get me wrong, I use the stuff myself, but I know an old lodgeskin or some summer robes would be a better option---if only I could afford either! I'm seriously thinking about handsewing a Russia sheeting bell-back wedge tent--it would be alot of work, but worth it.

Rod

tenngun said:

Well maybe I missed something here.If we are talking about the westren fur trade mm time then yes russian sheating is recorded.Any thing you could buy in st louis was found out west.If we are going to except cotton canvas tipis then we have to accept cotton canvas russian sheating.

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As to the whole cotton canvas issue.
No - we don't have to accept the russia sheeting. Show me your evidence that is time, person and place specific.

Canvas tipis are accepted, as the alternative is impossible for nearly everyone but not because they are correct. Everyone knows they are not right, those who are honest will admit it. The reality is that without a native wife, a mountain man would not have had a tipi, as they were owned by the woman NOT the man. If a tipi was lived in, it was primarily in the context of a native village. The journals indicate that tents were not uncommon for (some) larger groups, but men in the hills on their own hook slept on the ground wrapped in a blanket (if they had one), in half-face shelters or some other improvised shelter made from BLANKETS and/or SKINS and/or brush/branches/grass.

Again - time, place and person-specific. Documentation trumps speculation any time.

Ok , you can use cotton canvas for a tipi since buffalo robes are a mite dear now but you cant use it for russian sheating,or sunforger for wedge tents but not pack covers.I see.We know tents are mentioned in westren fur trade.Such tents could have been made from canvas,unless your documentation shows only tent material west of st louis was buffalo hide.Or am I wrong here,that cotton is ok for buffalo used in a tipi but wrong for buffalo used for a whitemans tent.What is a tent by the way?If a jornal said they set up a tent was it a wedge,bell,marques,miners cabin,what was it?Well I guess it could have been anything except tied up on one corner and stacked down on three.

Let me make it perfectly clear-
WE KNOW COTTON IS WRONG FOR TENTAGE.
Buffalo hides for tipis are expensive and heavy.
If you want a linen tent (which is PC/HC), either you pay through the nose to have one made or make it yourself. There are also issues of safety at events due to the flammability of untreated tent canvas. On the other hand, under SPECIFIC circumstances, cotton tentage is accepted due to the previously-listed reasons.

While the newer Russia sheeting is cotton, the proper material is still available, so (other than as a temporary cost-saving measure) we can buy and use the proper material. Also, research and evidence has shown us that a wedge-type tent (with or without a bell) was the most common type.

However, the exception mentioned above does not absolve us of the responsibility to improve our impression if we know and can make the change. I still have a cotton tarp that I use occasionally because I haven't had the time or the $$ to make a linen one. It doesn't mean that the cotton is right, I know it isn't. BUT at $10-20/yard and needing 8-10yds of linen, it is a choice that will need to wait while other more important things are done first.

I have items of machine-sewn cotton clothing that I still wear, because finding the time to hand-sew linen garments is short. On the other hand, I am making all new items of clothing from linen, wool, hemp and braintan to replace the items I have now that I know are WRONG.

The difference is that I know what I need to change. Some people know the stuff is of the incorrect material and/or construction and DON'T CARE. That is the problem.....

tenngun said:

Any thing you could buy in st louis was found out west.

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Seriously?

tenngun said:

Any thing you could buy in st louis was found out west.

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Not really. If "anything" was readily available everywhere, then there would have been NO reason for a rendezous. A guy could have gone down to the local fort "St. Louis Mega-mart" and traded furs for whatever he wanted. Last I checked, the forts that were "in the west" weren't always well supplied or supplied at all....

...which necessitated trips to major settlements if re-supply between the yearly rendezvous was needed.

So your "everthing was available out west" hypothesis is flawed.

Let me see the records of the fur compines show they traded shooting supplies,guns locks ect.trade goods for indians.cloth.premade shirts,shoes boots,knifes,axes shovels,books,silk coffee,tea, sugar,rasins,chocolot,hot sauce, rope ect,ect. Ok i mispoke,beer would not transfer well and wine and fine liqure didn't have much of a market.Some times they ran out of stock,there wasn't a wal mart of the plains,but in general any normal use itam found in st louis made it to the plains,sometimes in short supply and dear but could be found.By the by I didn't say readily avalable.Nor did I say that cotton is right we know cotton canvas wasn't invented yet.Nor was sun forger.but we accept it today as needed for the world we live in.The question that started this was if a canvas tarp could be set up as a dimond.Yes canvas did make it to the mountians,yes they set up tents,no we do not know if anyone made a dimond by that name.If you think no one before 1840 staked three coners down and tied one up then i got a nice bridge for you,cash only please

and just one more thought,the mm period from 1810-1840 more narrow 1822-1840 most every mm came through st louis.Since st lo had stores just what was it that was sold in town that could not be bought by a mm and not carried west.Was the arch the place where border guards stopped people from taking countraban west?Yes indeed with very few exceptions,if you could get it in st lo you could get it in the mountians.If you broke your rifle you may have to make due with a nwg for a year or more till you could get a new rifle,and when you drank up your coffee you would have to wait till the next vous.However sold in st louis it could make it to the rockies

Black Hand said:

Let me make it perfectly clear-
WE KNOW COTTON IS WRONG FOR TENTAGE.
Buffalo hides for tipis are expensive and heavy.
If you want a linen tent (which is PC/HC), either you pay through the nose to have one made or make it yourself. There are also issues of safety at events due to the flammability of untreated tent canvas. On the other hand, under SPECIFIC circumstances, cotton tentage is accepted due to the previously-listed reasons.

While the newer Russia sheeting is cotton, the proper material is still available, so (other than as a temporary cost-saving measure) we can buy and use the proper material. Also, research and evidence has shown us that a wedge-type tent (with or without a bell) was the most common type.

However, the exception mentioned above does not absolve us of the responsibility to improve our impression if we know and can make the change. I still have a cotton tarp that I use occasionally because I haven't had the time or the $$ to make a linen one. It doesn't mean that the cotton is right, I know it isn't. BUT at $10-20/yard and needing 8-10yds of linen, it is a choice that will need to wait while other more important things are done first.

I have items of machine-sewn cotton clothing that I still wear, because finding the time to hand-sew linen garments is short. On the other hand, I am making all new items of clothing from linen, wool, hemp and braintan to replace the items I have now that I know are WRONG.

The difference is that I know what I need to change. Some people know the stuff is of the incorrect material and/or construction and DON'T CARE. That is the problem.....

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Can't locate the research to refute or verify this claim (highlighted in red). I do see that canvas was made from hemp, linen and cotton but nothing stating when cotton began being used to make canvas.
Sources?