Use of the 1803 rifle

Hi all,
I know that the 1803 rifle was used in the war of 1812, but did the rifle see active service in later conflicts in its original flintlock form?

Thanks.

I did a quick search and it seems to indicate the Harpers Ferry 1803's prime claim to fame was during the War of 1812.

According to the information in the following link, the gun was made thru 1819 so it may have been involved in some small events.

Follow this link for a bit of information.
http://spiritofjefferson.com/blog/...-armory-played-role-in-two-american-conflicts/

I have seen reports that the 1803 was used by some units from Utah in the early part of the Mexican-American War.

Wasn't this the arsenal gun used on the Lewis and Clark expedition? MD

M.D. said:

Wasn't this the arsenal gun used on the Lewis and Clark expedition? MD

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That's a source of contention, historically speaking. It's never mentioned and it's left up to speculation.

M.D. said:

Wasn't this the arsenal gun used on the Lewis and Clark expedition? MD

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uh,oh......here we go. :yakyak:

It did see use in the American Civil War as well AND in original flint. At the beginning of the war, many state troops were issued, trained with and fought with flint rifles and muskets. On both sides, it was far from a "poor, ragged Southern forces" thing - the Yanks were no better off until well into late 1861 or early 1862, the same as their Southern opponents.

Members of Virginia's 33rd Infantry Regiment are confirmed as having been armed with the M1803 and Virginia Manufactory Rifles (a standard longrifle), both in flint, during the Battle of Bull Run.

For accurate information on armament at the beginning of the ACW, read the linked document referring to the arming of the troops at the beginning of the war. And remember that Virginia was the largest (except for Texas) and wealthiest state in the nation at that time.

laffindog said:

M.D. said:

Wasn't this the arsenal gun used on the Lewis and Clark expedition? MD

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uh,oh......here we go. :yakyak:

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and another discussion about the Lewis and Clarke air gun? :barf:

Huh, didn't know it was a controversy. Heard it on a DVD I have of the Lewis and Clark expedition. MD

Not a controversy. Just a distraction from the traditional ML'er focus of the forum.

You betchum Col.! All we know for sure is that the M.1803 was the military issue for the Rifle Regiment, and the other three formed during the War of 1812 until replaced, in what let's call Federal Service, by the M.1817 version. The rifle did show up later in militia service around the country, etc.

This rifle has got my attention as to a good looking piece. I remember reading that Lewis and Clark had 1803's with them but who knows where the author "heard" it. One of the he said, she said deals unfortunately for all of us today.

http://www.westernexplorers.us/Lewis-and-Clark-Expedition-firearms-summary.html

Col. Batguano said:

Not a controversy. Just a distraction from the traditional ML'er focus of the forum.

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I didn't realize that discussion of historically correct rifles of L&C was a distraction from "traditional" rifles---maybe it takes time away from the endless TC/GPR discussions? :stir: :haha:

Regardless where you fall on the 1792 vs. 1803 controversy, they are both pretty interesting. Although the original post was on military use (and has been ably answered), in my opinion one of the more fascinating bits of 1803 lore is a letter dating from the 1820s from the commander of Ft. Akinson asking his superiors if he could sell off stands of obsolete 1803's. The rifle companies had recently been rearmed with the 1817 Common Rifle, and he obviously had a market available for older rifles. As Ft. Atkinson was the last point of 'civilization' on the Missouri, and this was when the western fur trade was really hitting its stride, the conclusion is that fur trappers & traders were looking to buy. Any reply to the letter, however, has been lost so we don't know if he was able to sell them or not.

Rod

M.D. said:

Huh, didn't know it was a controversy. Heard it on a DVD I have of the Lewis and Clark expedition. MD

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The L&C Expedition took 15 "short rifles" with them to the Pacific and back.
2 burst the upper part of the barrel.
Lewis was at HF when the 1803 had to be in the prototype stage.
Lewis had a letter instructing HF to make him anything he needed.
All the rifles had spare locks and lock parts taken along.
The records show that HF made 15 more 1803s than were ordered.

There were a large number of "Contract Rifles"in stores at HF. It is possible that some of these were shortened and used by the expedition. However, these rifles were not known (SFAIK) to fail in the upper part of the barrel, 1803s were.
They would have had to make new locks for them since the locks used were somewhat "lacking" and this would have allowed more standardized parts.
We really do not know what the bore size is only that when Lewis was shot with one he knew what it was a "short rifle" by the ball size. But we have no idea what it was.
The evidence for the use of a shortened is that they were there. Period. Since they were there they must have used them.

Now I have no idea what they carried for rifles.
However, based on what I have read to date, I would vote for the 1803 prototype (remember that the effort to make an issue rifle started in 1800 with the British adoption of the Baker). Based on the manufacturing techniques of the time they had to be making or even had working prototypes at the time Lewis was there. Remember everything was done from patterns and prototypes. There were no blueprints or detailed drawings.
This said I cannot say the someone with a contract rifle with a HF lock and a shortened barrel is "wrong".
Where the controversy arises is with people with a financial interest in it being one or the other. While I lean heavily to the 1803 type. I really do not care one way or the other. Nor does anyone "know" so do research and make a decision if its important. Or flip a coin....
Having the HF records destroyed at least for the most part, during the Civil War does not help.

Dan

Dan Phariss said:

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Having the HF records destroyed at least for the most part, during the Civil War does not help.

Dan

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Flip a coin indeed Dan, good thoughts above in your post. Keep in mind though, that the Harpers Ferry records were not destroyed, at least not the copies. They are almost complete and are in the National Archives but it takes a great deal of work to find them. No mention of what Lewis and Clark used as far as rifles though..... :idunno:

laffindog said:

M.D. said:

Wasn't this the arsenal gun used on the Lewis and Clark expedition? MD

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uh,oh......here we go. :yakyak:

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I told ya, I seen it right off. This topic is irresistable to some posters. :stir:

notice that I am replying to myself, don't want to ruffle any feathers. :surrender:

To anyone who hasn't seen the phenomena before it might be very interesting so carry on boys.

Hear, Hear! I have a keen but severely lacking interest in the L&C expedition and, tangentially in the M1803. I take no side in the "supplied rifle" issue for the expedition. For me the L&C expedition, regardless of arms carried was a monumental endeavor carried out by a small band of men who were heroic.

I've been following the 1803 topic and I can add this. During the BlackHawk war here in Wisconsin, May 1832-Aug 1832, the 6th infantry was sent to deal with situation. They were armed with M1816 type 1 muskets, 100 M1819 Hall rifles dated 1826, and the 6th light company was armed with M1803 Harpers Ferry rifles. No dates were given on the rifles, but given the date of this conflict, they were probably second models made between 1815-1819. Also, excavations at the site of the battle of Bad Ax recovered several pieces of M1803's, locks, side plates, trigger guards and fragments of rear ramrod pipes. I beleive these relics are in storage at the Prairie Du Chien historical site.
G.S.