12L14 Steel for barrels???

Well, that may be but he didn't make up the hoop stress numbers and they are very low compared to many other steels used for gun barrels, black or smokeless.It all seems to come back to the cold rolled process and has little to do with the alloy make up. It is not ductile enough for any gun barrel steel according to these guys. Apparently the same alloy if hot rolled would be suitable but not as machine friendly. MD

Rich Pierce said:

That article is like a divine revelation to some. Since then, there have been a lot of 12L14 barrels made, tested, and used safely.

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Amen, Bro. :surrender:

I googled it and found out the magazine went under
But do you know of a link or source to it? I'd like to have a looky-see.

And for anyone interested in rifling machines, have a look at this link to the American Precision Museum. http://www.americanprecision.org/

On the first page is a video of a sine bar rifler, which puzzled the poot out of me until I saw it in action. A picture is worth a thousand words.

As a service to my fellow muzzleloaders I will collect all of your 12l14 barrels and keep them safely out of the hands of shooters. So you all can send them to me, free of charge of course, and I'll save you all :grin:

Then throw away all of your 12L14 steel barrels if that makes you happy.

M.D. said:

I did read an article done in the late 70's concerning 12L14 by some one that was supposed to know what he was talking about and his beef seemed to center around the fact that it is cold rolled and because of it had very brittle characteristics at room temperature.

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(Emphasis added in quote)

And that sir is half of the problem, people making matter-of-fact statements about things they don't understand or twisting/omitting pertinent information because of intent or ignorance. Would it scare the pants off of some people if they knew that some modern smokeless barrels are formed using a "cold-rolling" process? Would they feel comfortable tripping the trigger of their smokeless magnum on a frosty morning knowing only part of the information?
Mark

Thanks for the web site ,I like this stuff.

This all makes for an academic, supposedly erudite discussion, but.....ignores the tens of thousands {at least} of 12L14 bbls being safely shot every day. "News" has a way of getting around and if bbls of 12L14 steel were failing, we'd know about it and the bbl makers would cease to use it. Haven't heard of any "accidents" and the resulting lawsuits against the bbl makers who use 12L14 or the builders who use these bbls. The bbl makers must be confident in using 12L14 steel in their bbls and that's plenty good enough for "most of us"......Fred

If you PM me and give me a fax number I will send it to you or a mailing address I will run off a copy of the article and send.
We just had another accident this last year in the Black Powder Cartridge community at the Quiqly shoot. I don't know all the details yet about the load(if it was black or smokeless), action(cast or forged) or barrel steel, I think it was an original Ballard action and it came apart and mangled a Lady shooters hand.
If it was a Black powder load, had no barrel obstruction and the action was of forged steel then I have to wonder if the barrel material was 12L14.
I also agree if the material was as bad as some think that there would be more barrel failures and law suits.I suppose it is possible that it is only marginally safe barrel material and the low pressure of black powder keeps failure from manifesting very often.
It is one of the reasons I appreciate GM barrels though if my understanding of what the alloy used is true. MD

Lets hope none of yours come apart in your puss Zonie!
I love the old saying,(You can always tell an engineer,but can't tell em much!) I have several engineer friends and one of them I do gun work for told me that one. :wink:

I think I read some where that some of those old Ballard actions where not real strong , is that correct.

There are two articles from the Buckskin Report on barrels - this is he one that has has been touted a lot by Dan Phariss and here it is


What Dan doesn't point out is the metallurgist questioned for the article stated categorically he knew NOTHING about firearms yet proceeded to make recommendations - that IMO is NOT expert testimony.....

and for what it's worth the stresses in a cold drawn steel barrel can be releived with a proper heat treatment if that is a concern...

Does anyone know of a ML manufacturer that uses 12L14 barrels? Does Lyman, TC, Pedersoli?

snapper

I don't recall hearing anything about a bunch of ML barrels blowing up or recalls for defects in barrel steel. It seems like a "chicken little" argument to me. When I see proof of wide spread barrel failure then I will join the flailing of arms and gnashing of teeth. Until then I will continue to live dangerously.

My .54 Douglas is probably 12L14 and I will continue to shoot it. It has many thousands of rounds down it's gullet and is one of my most accurate muzzle loaders. It most likely will be fine but the fact that we don't like to hear potential problems with our guns does not make that possibility evaporate,especially when fostered by someone qualified to make the claim..I'm going to back off a bit from my heaviest loads in the gun personally.
Seems to me we have testimony of two people, one at least of which is expert in the field of metallurgy and we seem to want to ignore what he has to say. Kind of like telling EOD people that we no more about bomb disposal, don't you think?
I think caution is always a good fall back position in uncertain territory. MD

Yes, Cast steel Ballards were only made for rimfire rounds and never for center fire.
The original company went through five receiverships and reorganizations before going out of business for good.
Many were assembled with left over parts from previous owners when new people took over. This in and of it self is not bad policy if correct assignment of parts went into properly made models of firearm.
It is said that the way one tells is if there are three lines of script on the receiver instead of two but the only way you can tell for sure is to look inside the action under the finger lever and see if it is made of a casting or forging.
The forgings are the stronger. MD

No, I don't think your analogy is valid. Two "testimonials" is not proof. 4 out of 5 dentists said so.
When I see many blowed up barrels from loading safe and resonable charges of the correct type of powder then I will consider the source and weigh the evidence again.

I am all for being safe and using caution when loading any firearm but I refuse to live in fear driven by a lack of solid evidence.

Actually what I said was I will continue to shoot this gun and back down from my maximum charges a bit. That is caution not fear!
The "fact" that 12L14 cold drawn steel is vulnerable to impact stress is not an opinion of just one metallurgist.
It is a constant known in the industry. At what point does it become a danger to the black powder user? The fact that most BP loads generate less than say 20K for an upper threshold is only true when there is no other factors involved like double charges, a maxi that worked up bore(barrel obstruction) barrel wall inclusion, poorly fit breech plugs, dovetails cut to deep in a curved bore etc. This is were the safety margin is important because these things can and do happen.
This is not the place for marginally safe cold rolled barrel steel alloy to save a bit of time and expense on tooling.
Why would a barrel maker not want to build the biggest safety margin possible into his product commensurate to reasonable machining practice when so many others can and do?
Any center fire steel will work just as well in a muzzle loader and have the safety margins inherent. MD

M.D. said:

.....like double charges, a maxi that worked up bore(barrel obstruction) barrel wall inclusion, poorly fit breech plugs, dovetails cut to deep in a curved bore etc. This is were the safety margin is important because these things can and do happen.......

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....and even certified gun barrel steel won't hold up under these conditions, no steel will. Barrels made from 12L14 has been proven to bulge and even burst, but not turn to shrapnel as steel certified for barrels often does.

These things we play with go "BOOM" and it is up to the builder and the shooter to take the proper precautions to ensure they do so in the right direction.

M.D. said:

Why would a barrel maker not want to build the biggest safety margin possible into his product commensurate to reasonable machining practice when so many others can and do?....

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The guys who make, and continue to make, these barrels from 12L14 by the thousands will argue that they are taking safety into account and tests have been done....practicle ones, not theoretical ones...that proove it so.

No disrespect, but have you read this entire thread? Both sides have already been presented. The facts have been presented. No centerfire barrel steel offers any additional margin of safety to anything other than law suits and I'd argue that when the lawyers get involved, no matter what steel you're using, all bets are off.

I thought this was put to rest already and it was decided that those who do will continue to and those who don't either will or won't....use barrels made of 12L14. I are you trying to make up you're own mind....or ours? :haha:

Enjoy, J.D.

i guess i would be referred to as a newbie when it comes to muzzleloading, even though i dabbled with it 35 years ago.

this is my opinion about this topic

12L14 is probably just fine for a barrel with sane loading practices, and maybe not fine when loaded with these so called magnum loads?

i see lots of folks using what is not recommended for powder, using FFFg in 50 plus calibers and then also using 150gr to boot. i am left to wonder what might happen with the inclusion of a very heavy projectile or a tight fitting prb?

having been out to the range now every day for the last week and firing something over 120 rounds with my 50cal, for the life of me i cannot see any reason to use these magnum loads?

a 45/70 killed everything on this continent didn't it?

i am finding that same loading, but using 777 as a propellant to be exceptionally accurate, repeatable and with adequate power at 120 yds. i am using a round nose copper jacketed 350gr .452 projectile and a sabot, and not only can i shoot good groups but also nail a 2inch bullseye with alarming frequency. the only thing left was to determine is effective power, relatively speaking.

there is sufficient power to go clean through 3.5inches of green and wet fresh cut black walnut and bury the bullet in the railroad tie back stop, which ought to go clean through a white tail deer?

so i don't understand the need for a so called magnum load, or the need to use FFFg or equivalent when FFg in modest amounts and a decent size projectile is more than adequate?

its also got to be easy on the barrel? again relative to what i would call insane loading practices?

i find it hard to believe one could ever blow up a barrel made from just about any steel, beit 12L14 or whatever using reasonable powder charges and making sure his projectiles are seated properly.

my thinking is any failures are likely due to the use of the wrong grade of powder, magnum loads of it, and not having the bullet seated properly... in which case i would agree with others that post the fact that any steel is likely to fail under those conditions.

after buying the cva wolf, and yes i understand its an inline and no one wants to talk about inlines here... but bear with me a bit... the gun is advertized as a magnum, able to handle 150gr powder charges, so yes i tried it! and no i won't again! the sonofabeech kicked the living manure out of me and the accuracy was a joke. even though i have read that cva guns are dangerous and made from "india tempered lead" (only a slight exaggeration) the barrel didn't explode or bulge or show any signs of distress.

call it my proof test of this barrel, and no i won't be doing it again...

having done this i would have no problem continuing to use this gun with the same 70gr of ffg equivalent 777 and a 300-350gr projectile... and my bet is the barrel will be good for a very long time so long as i keep sane loading practices with it.

so guys tell me again, why do we need 120-150gr of FFFg or equivalent in a 50cal rifle? and...

would you guys still have the same fear of 12L14 barrels using 70gr of 777?

just curious and wanting to learn here.

btw, i bought another 50cal rifle and currently am not using the cva wolf, and won't use it if there is sufficient evidence that it is not up to the task at hand, loaded sanely and provide a safe shooting experience.

thanks
bob g