edrevolver timimg

tried a search function need some help on revolver timing on a 1861 navy. when looking down the barrel a slight part of the cylider face is showing to my right at full cock. is it a hand issue, bolt issue i sont think it could be a spring issue I would like to fix this myself so please dont refer me to a smith

I don't have a 61 myself but have worked on lots of revolvers and functionally they are pretty much the same.
What you are seeing is as you have surmised, misalignment.
Almost always it is the bolt knocks in the cylinder that are out with the frame window that the bolt comes through.
You can't change the knock placement and depending on how wide the window is in relation to the bolt nose you may be able to mak or order and fit a new bolt or shim the existing one to the side needed.The pawl/hand is usually not a factor unless it is to long or wide and is binding the cylinder to one side. When the cylinder is locked up it still should have a bit of play if the pawl/hand is not binding it.
Some times they shoot fine even when misaligned.
Does it spit lead? If it doesn't and is accurate than probably the best bet is to leave well enough alone.
I once went through a Ruger Super Blackhawk in .44 mag and found the chambers quite out of line with the barrel but uppon test firing it was super accurate and did not spit. Go figure!
Generally you can see misalignment with your eye that a range rod will not even detect because your eye is really good at seeing a very few thousands off center.
What your seeing is the reason custom pistols are line bored. All most all production revolvers, even high end ones will show some misalignment and still will shoot fine.
One more thing,sometime a new and larger diameter base pin helps vertical alignment. Whoops I forgot you don't have a base pin on a 61, still thinking Ruger. MD

I should try fireing it ive never evnr blank fired it got it for $145 looked up the code and it was made in 1985 and I dont believe its ever been fired has the name mountainman muzzleloaders on the to if that means anything to anyone here

David, one of the first things I do on any revolver ,single or double action, is take the bolt out and burnish all the sharp edges around the nose without changing any of the dimensions of the bolt. Many times they will score a ring around your cylinder when they drop from the sharp edges on the nose. It will leave a line any way but this is normal. Contrary to some thought the line on the cylinder is not always an indication of improper timing.
On single actions the bolt should drop back on the cylinder anytime past half way and should NOT be late enough to drop only into the lead in cut. This is OK for S&W double action revolvers but to late for most single actions. You want the cylinder inertia to be breaking somewhat before the bolt slams into back side of the knock and wallowing it out. The breaking action from the bolt drop and tension and the lead in cut help the bolt to get to the bottom of the knock to prevent this. Probably more than you wanted to know so I'll stop rambling. MD

That's not timing, that's chamber/bore alignment. Two completely different things, with separate issues and totally different fixes.

That's backwards. The bolt can rise a little early on a S&W or other double action but on a single action, it shouldn't rise any earlier than at the tip of the leede. Preferably into the leede itself. Halfway is way too early for anything but a Ruger New Model.

A drag line is NOT normal for any traditional half cock action single action revolver. It's a result of either an early rising bolt or mishandling, dropping the hammer from the half cock notch.

Well Craig, we disagree but that's OK makes for good discussion. I do agree about a drag line should not be all the way around but I still contend a single action bolt should drop just past half way and before the lead in cut.I like and have timed all mine to drop just past half way the same as with a Ruger Single action and for the inertia braking reason stated.Late bolt drops make for wallowed out knocks on the far side over time.A late bolt drop hammers out knocks and frame windows much the same as fanning and quick draw stuff does only not nearly as fast.
Did you read the whole thread? I talked first about alignment and then about timing.
Pawl thrust, alignment and timing are all related and in a properly fit revolver synchronized for a smooth no bind cycling.MD

As has been said timing and bore alignment are two different things. For bore alignment a range rod is used (I don't know if any are made for a Navy). This is a rod that just fits the bore and it is run from the muzzle down. If it hits the end of the cylinder rather than enter the chamber then the bore is misaligned. Check all chambers, you may have all of them off- in which case modifying the bolt position might help; or, you might have only one chamber off.
The forcing cone is a very short lead in area of the bore-as the bullet exits the chamber and enters the bore. if the gun is spitting lead a different cut in the forcing cone may help BUT if the gun is shooting okay LEAVE IT ALONE.
The timing- the function is the same as a Single Action Army so any book on the SSA will work okay. As the hammer is pulled back the bolt ought to drop before cylinder rotation begins. On a Colt percussion the frame in concave so you can't see the bolt drop but you can slip a thin sheet of paper in the bolt area to see if it is clear. Ideally the bolt ought to pop up in the leade of the notch- so you don't get a scratch on the cylinder but most guns pop up early and except for the scratch it doesn't cause any harm. There is a tail on the bolt that slips off the hammer and this is bent in or out to change this. Once the bolt is in the notch the hammer should go into full cock without having to move the hammer much farther back- maybe 1/8". Too much reward motion stresses the internal parts. Some guns actually go into full cock before the bolt locks up but a lot of folks don't realize it because they are pulling the hammer back as far as it will go so the bolt ends up locking okay.
I should state that in almost all situations all the parts inter-relate so if you change one thing it effects something else. The hand travels up it's slot and at the beginning the top of the hand is pushing the ratchet but as rotation continues the side of the hand comes into play so a sloppy fit in the hand's groove will cause trouble. IAE- don't rush and start changing anything. First test the barrel alignment and shoot the gun. On a percussion shooting soft round balls should be okay even if there is a little misalignment.

Nice revolvers and no drag lines. I have studied mostly Kunhausen manuals for both single and double action revolvers and have two entire tool boxes set up for both.
And I have been working on them for about the same time as you have (30 years). It is my personal opinion on where the bolt should drop on production guns not that of the manuals authors who generally say what you have.Most production guns will have a drag line and are not as perfectly timed as custom guns are because the parts are not as perfectly fit or of as high a quality.I would expect the same(text book fit)in a custom or high end gun as that is what one is paying for. Production guns I do not and they will still work fine and have no need to be customized to the same level just so no drag line will show. I like the bolt to drop to help brake inertia just before the lead in cut and past half way and is the reason I have adopted this practice for production revolvers. I think it entirely practical for them and can see no need to fit a new bolt to avoid it.
Range rods of which you speak and I have are only approximations and will not tell you of perfect alignment. Your eye looking down a bore with a goose neck light will see misalignment that a range rod will not even balk at. I always check alignment in each chamber with a light and my eye instead of using my range rods.
One reads the manuals and then gains experience by actually working on them. Over time thinking on what really matters and practicality form opinions on what is needed for each individual arm worked on.
I do not agree that I have dispensed any misinformation on the timing of the guns in question. MD

thank you for all your help I will just have to try it to see and if it works well I will leave it alone if not I will ask more here.

Beautiful CCH.......

Have you ever seen or worked on a gun that has been fanned or speed shot. The wallowed out knock has nothing to do with hammer over travel or to long of a pawl. It has everything to do with inertia and a bolt that did not make it to the bottom of knock before it slammed into the far side. This not only wallows out the bolt notch it can stretch the window in the frame. A pawl that is to long will bind and be corrected. That is why it is not generally the cause of knock peening.Hammer over travel is a necessity. Think for a moment,what is more substantial a full bolt and notch lock up or the end of a pawl hook on a ratchet tooth. Which will give way first?
A simple check on bolt movement and cylinder rotation is to drag your thumb softly on a cylinder and see if the pawl will rotate it far enough for the bolt to drop into the notch without inertia helping in a slow cycle.In a double hook system the second tooth on the pawl finishes the rotation in slow or target fire set up just as the bolt drops and the sear latches into the hammer and not later than 1/16" over travel of the hammer.My feeling is the second tooth should be a bit short so that it actually does have to make the final push in hammer over travel. At any rate it should never bind the ratchet at full hammer travel in slow rotation.
Some hammer over travel is necessary,for tolerance and wear.
Do you actually tear these guns down and work on them? It sounds like you have a lot of head knowledge and little practical experience. MD

My ASM Pocket Police was non-functioning when I got it. After months of tinkering it's now a shooter and it too is slightly off just as you describe. However, it shoots accurately, just high as they are known to do.

In my case, the hand was and is too long. Shortening the hand did the most to get it working. Someday I'd like to replace the hand and bolt with new parts, but for now it shoots just fine.

Make sure it functions properly and then go shoot it before messing with it.

I have seen guns that have been fanned but never worked on one. I would never do that to my guns so I may never see the inside of one that has been abused as such. If you're building quick draw guns, that's probably a bit different.

A little hammer overtravel is necessary but most guns have too much. Which is why my custom guns are fitted with a hammer stop.

I have over two dozen single actions and none of the traditional guns are so poorly timed that the bolt rises halfway. My USFA Rodeo with its bolt rising just beyond the tip of the leede is the earliest rising bolt I have. From USFA and Colt to Uberti and Pietta, most new guns are properly timed. Like I said, if I had one that did rise halfway between the notches, it would get fixed.

M.D. said:

Do you actually tear these guns down and work on them? It sounds like you have a lot of head knowledge and little practical experience.

Click to expand...

Yes, I do all my own action jobs.

I personally have only had 1 Uberti that had an issue. 1962 Pocket Police that over rotated,sent it back to Stoeger and was returned a week later with complete action job with the repairs for free..........

Nice work.......

Do you know if cap-n-ball revolvers have a specific gauging for the forcing cone angle and depth? I don't have any manuals for working these over and pretty much have to use my cartridge single action manuals and what I can figure out? MD

Man there is a huge amount of knowledge available here! I am going to rest a while and then read all of these posts again. By the way these pictures are great too! Geo. T.

I lathe turned a spud that screwed into the frame of my 58 Remington Pietta in lieu or the barrel and tight fit a chucking reamer to it.
The reason was I could see misalignment looking down the barrel with a goose neck light and could measure out of round and differing diameters of the chamber mouths.
I removed the barrel, screwed in the spud reamer fixture, indexed each chamber by the existing bolt,clamped the cylinder to the frame and line bore each chamber.The reamer did a nice job of rounding out and evening all the chamber mouths.
I cleaned them up with emery cloth and test fired the gun.
There was no improvement in accuracy that I could detect although alignment was much improved and the chamber throat diameters were all the same.
Accuracy had always been better than I could hold with this gun but I was surprised all that work to align better did not make a one holer out of it or at least improve accuracy . The barrel although a Pietta has been lapped, re-crowned and the forcing cone reamed round.
I have a friend that acquires Freedom arms guns along with some customs. He buys and tests them for all the accuracy he can get and then sells them to get another.He has owned and sold well over 50 Cassuls and told me one day he has owned only three that were true minute guns at 100 yards. These were all Cassuls not customs by the way. Dennis is the best bench pistol shot I have ever seen or heard of and when he talks about a minute gun he is talking about usually not occasionally doing so. MD

This forum is for the discussion of muzzleloading firearm, though discussion of cap and ball revolvers is allowed.

Please refer to forum rules, particularly No.4: Although not muzzleloaders, we do allow discussions of percussion revolvers.

Please respect this forum.

Claypipe said:

This forum is for the discussion of muzzleloading firearm, though discussion of cap and ball revolvers is allowed.

Please refer to forum rules, particularly No.4: Although not muzzleloaders, we do allow discussions of percussion revolvers.

Please respect this forum.

Click to expand...

I'm quite aware of the rules and I very much respect this forum, which is why I support it. I resent the implication that I do not respect the forum. This is a discussion about REVOLVER timing. I'm very sorry that I do not have decent pics of percussion pistol bolt notches but everything in this thread is VERY relevant to percussion revolvers.

But thanks for the condescending reminder. :td: