killing power

I don't know if this is outside the forum rules or not and am sure it won't see the light of day if it is but:

I am often asked by other shooters, being somewhat of a novelty and amusement to them as I am, what the killing power of my back powder rifles is.

To put it in terms they can understand my standard reply is as follows (remember killing power, not ballistics or energy figures or long range, etc, etc):

With full power but safe loads shooting roundballs my .50 cal is like a .30/30 and my .54 cal is like a .45/70.

Interested to hear others thoughts on my analogy and comparisons I use. Mind you I have never shot or owned a .45/70 but have killed enough critters with each blackpowder calibre to form a pretty strong opinion on the matter.

Keep it clean, no squabbling.

.50, with 70-90 grains of 2F, is enough to feel safe in any neck of the woods on the North American Continent. What it boils down to is shot placement, and keeping a cool head...Just My Honest Opinion....I too have killed many a furry beastie with My faithful .50!!!

Was talking yesterday afternoon with Fred, a fellow I've known for years but didn't know he shot black powder. Has an older Spanish made .54 percussion half stock with a narrow hooked butt plate that loves TC maxi-hunters right out of the yellow box. He related a story about a friend that harvested a doe with it at 60 yards. After having killed many deer over many years his friend was astounded at how the authoritatively the muzzle loader dropped the doe. And also by the painful bruise on his arm. Fred's standard load for that rifle is a 100 grains.

Must be a .53, those bullets rattle in my .54. The maxi balls are tight though. I cast some .54 Lyman plains bullets today @ 450gn it occurred to me that they are the same weight as a modern elephant style projectile.

I've always used the following analogy to try and put MLs & PRBs into perspective for my fellow center fire hunter friends...in a 100 yard world of PRB muzzleloading:

.45cal is the .243...75yds is a good safe range limit and shot placement is critical to avoid bones, especially at distance;

.50cal is the .30-30...typical 100yd woods gun with pretty reasonable care still required for shot placement to avoid hams, big bones, etc, at distance;

.54cal is the .35Rem...you can get to the heart from a lot of angles with bones mostly being of no major concern;

.58cal is the .30-06...go for the heart from most any angle you want and it'll get there;

.62cal is the .458 Win Mag...just aim for the middle of the biggest part of the deer's front...LOL

Somewhere between a sharpened length of rebar and a bazooka. Both will kill you in seconds if used properly; so obviously it's all in the delivery.

Impossible to exactly define.
Some might try to come close.
They do what they do and, if we stay within the limits of this antiquated shooting system, they are effective killers.

had a guy once tell me my .54 ha2wken would'nt kill elk. man the look on his face when I showed him some pics... 90 grains of FFFg and a cast 380 real doses wonders on elk.

rawhide said:

had a guy once tell me my .54 ha2wken would'nt kill elk. man the look on his face when I showed him some pics... 90 grains of FFFg and a cast 380 real doses wonders on elk.

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Yes, same goes for PRBs...until you roll up enough years of taking big game which brings various distances & angles into play...and you personally see the different results of different caliber balls...its difficult for the average hunter to truly appreciate the killing power of what at first seems to be a simple unimpressive looking lead round ball.

Yes, same goes for PRBs...until you roll up enough years of taking big game which brings various distances & angles into play...and you personally see the different results of different caliber balls...its difficult for the average hunter to truly appreciate the killing power of what at first seems to be a simple unimpressive looking lead round ball.

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And, right there lies the reason why it is often so difficult to get state game and fish commissions to write sensible regulations regarding muzzle loading hunting firearms. They are simply fixated on modern ballistics with energy numbers and such.

Based on the weight of the round ball, and the velocities, compared to the original loadings, I too use the .50 to .30-30 comparison, and the 35 Remington to .54 comparison, as a starting point. I also point out that a 400 grain .54 caliber conical over 90 grains of powder is more umph "on paper" than some of the .45-70 cartridges out there. :hmm:

I also point out the different bullets from all lead round balls, to conicals, to alloys of both, and mention that no matter what, a .50 starts a bigger hole than a .30. :grin:

I find it helps for the newbies when I teach, to begin to wrap their minds around how powerful a BP rifle actually is.

LD

Your assessment is valid. I've killed deer with modest 45/70 handloads and HEAVY handloads. I even killed two with the 30/30. If anything even a .45 prb does at least as well. A .50 is decisive, a .54 is a stomper, the .58 is a sledge hammer and the .62 is the hammer of Thor.

I have never tried to make any comparisons with MLs to centerfires as the performance and damage caused by each is totaly different I think one can only try and give a suggested range of effective ness for a give ball size and stick to the conservitive side of things, and the amount of experience with ML hunters will probably give a wide range of answers here, but the key factors are ability to pace the ball on target at a given "max" range and the powder load used at that range. If polling 100 longtime hunters using mLs about differnt cals and their "killing power" lone might find some consistancey but also expect some variation do to many random human factors. I tell folks that with primitive sights and PRB the
ML is typical a sub 100 yd gun for most with some exceptions based on a lot of experience, and that is with a .54 or larger ball and the range drops as does the ball size from there. When advising others it is best error on the conservative side. The vast number of lost Deer to PRBs has been from shooting to far, either due to poor range judgement, poor ability, or poor choice of load, or a combination of the above,yet the blame almost always falls on the use of the ball itself. You cannot seperate the range of the shot from this issue as it is one of the paramount factors in ML shooting efficiencey from power to accuray. If one considers modern conical bullets then we are in another world entirely as this is the same as using the 45/70 50/115 or any other large bore single shot cartridle gun with a heavy slug so there is no "ML" to modern comparison as they are the same thing.

tg said:

I have never tried to make any comparisons with MLs to centerfires,,,,

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And the rest of your explanation is all so very true,
Yet most folks shoot centerfire and believe these Trad guns to be archaic pop guns, they've grown up being feed television and media hype.
Having some kind of understandable analogie to give comparison helps the simple mind to understand.
Kapow's reply as stated is a good one,,30-30 and 45-70,, I don't think I'd go anywhere near 30-06 though that's a bit too much of a streach here in MN where the 30-06 is used by alot of hunters against some pretty heavy northern Whitetail.

I didn't say any of that and if you read the whole post you will see that I stipulated - within their range and also as a means of a simple conveyance to sceptics or even just the curious without having to get up on the soap box and launch into a sermen. But thanks for your thoughts.

I think it presents as a bit of a conflict and even revelation that such a primitive and rudimentary firearm is actually designed to deliver one well aimed lethal round and is actually very fussy about what it is fed.

In a fastly developing (deteriorating?) society that wants everything right now, more, more, more, it is almost offensive to some people that anyone would want to choose the hard way to do something. But as we all know, that is what makes it satisfying.

Interesting that I have friends with hot shot modern rifles who have lost wounded deer. I commonly find them or their bones during the season. To them it is odd that I've never lost a deer with an ML.

If the. 62 is the. 458 of ML, what does that make my .72?

I've got a 20 gauge smoothbore fowler that I deer hunt with using .60 cal roundball. Friends think, wow, that's got to be a thumper. I also have a 20 gauge pump that I used to deer hunt with slugs. I'm thinking that the 20 gauge pump will have superior ballistics over my fowler. And the 20 gauge pump isn't as popular as the 12 gauge pump. The above posts are right. People are comparing my fowler to a 62 caliber centerfire rifle bullet and not a modern 20 gauge shotgun.

I have never had to track a deer more than two paces after a hit from my .54 longrifle. .530, 75 - 90 grains of 3F. I am not a big time hunter, but I have a good friend who has killed 17 deer with his 54 rifle loaded with 60 grains of 3F, to date he has never lost a deer or recovered a ball! I had one spike buck step out in front of my .62 caliber rifle gun. Instant death, it looked like it was hit by a truck! When I break out my 75 caliber Brown Bess, the deer do not show up under 150 yards.
:grin:

Honestly, most folks that ask me don't know a .243 from a .338...

I usually get these questions after giving one of the historical talks that I give to schools and Boy Scouts...

I tie this question together with the effectiveness of a flintlock and tell them to consider this...

Daniel Boone hunted with one of these his entire life, he was a market hunter and killed thousands of deer...He died in his sleep at 85 year old...

Must have been pretty effective...